Is yoga a religion?

topic posted Fri, November 11, 2005 - 9:11 PM by  Drea
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I have had some really interesting and heated conversations with my boyfriend (a non yogini) regarding yoga. The issue that continues to come up is defining yoga as a religion. I am not talking about asana practice but more about the the spiritual practice of the vedic scriptures and using mantra and other aspects for self realization and union with god. I have been taught that Hinduism and the yoga teachings were traditions of spiritual practice but not really defined as religion in the western sense of organized religion. I would love to get other peoples input and thoughts on this.

Namaste,
Drea
posted by:
Drea
Oregon
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    Re: Is yoga a religion?

    Fri, November 11, 2005 - 9:25 PM
    thats a great topic Drea.....I wish I had the answer, but I don't. I have always considered hinduism a religion. When I attended Naropa University I took a hinduism class. This course was under the religious studies department......I think it's interesting that you mentioned it as being a spiritual practice b/c that seems true too. I don't know! Hopefully there's an expert in this tribe who can give a more detailed answer......Namaste!
  • Re: Is yoga a religion?

    Wed, November 30, 2005 - 11:11 PM
    your BF would not be a yogini anyway, he would be classified as a non-yogi. yogini is female, yogi is male.
    the word Hinduism is a word that denotes a religion, such as Buddhism, Zorastrianism, Islam, Christianity, etc
    Yes, Yoga is a science and a way of life. Not all Hindus recite mantras or read vedic scriptures- just like not all catholics go to church.
  • Unsu...
     

    Re: Is yoga a religion?

    Sat, December 3, 2005 - 8:04 AM
    yes, and the fact that you can be rooted in catholicism or whatever and still get somewhat deep into yoga shows that it's not necessarily "religious". although i think you would get more out of it studying the texts and doing the mantras and making it your religion.
  • Re: Is yoga a religion?

    Sun, December 4, 2005 - 11:36 AM
    Hi Drea,

    No, yoga is not a religion, but Hinduism is; yet neither of them belongs to each other. Both traditions emerged from the same origins: the ancient Vedic texts. From there they have gone on different yet parallel and sometimes intertwined paths. Because they were both developed from the same source, during the same time period, under the influences of the same culture and in the same country they have both borrowed from each other and use similar concepts, terms and philosophies.

    Yoga is not a religion; it is a spiritual practice--a way to experience the oneness of all creation. Yoga doesn’t care one way or the other who or what created creation, and the techniques of yoga can work with anyone’s concept of creator. Yoga has no churches. No dogma. No Pope. No organization.

    I’m curious why your boyfriend so insistent upon labeling yoga as a religion? Does your yoga practice threaten his religious beliefs?

    Namaste,
    Timothy
    • Re: Is yoga a religion?

      Sun, December 4, 2005 - 11:49 PM
      Timothy, you make a lot of sense talking about the interelationship between Hinduism & Yoga, but I'm don't follow your reasoning when you draw the line & say one's a religion & the other isn't.

      << Yoga has no ... No dogma?>>
      what about the eight limbs? including the 1st two: yamas & nyamas?

      << No Pope >>
      neither does Hinduism.

      << No organization. >>
      There are quite a few gurus & ashrams that would dissagree with you on that.

      I also find it really interesting how often the same people who are sure yoga isn't a relilgion are signing off their postings with "namaste". What's that about?
      • Re: Is yoga a religion?

        Mon, December 5, 2005 - 6:04 PM
        dear Benjamin,
        I have a few thoughts.

        ""<< Yoga has no ... No dogma?>>
        what about the eight limbs? including the 1st two: yamas & nyamas?""

        GOOD point. Yamas and Niyamas are Scientific though also. If you adhere to them impurities will not gather. It does not say that you "should" do them and that NOT to do them is "bad." It is a choice - for those who choose this path of awakening restraints and observances will be necessary. Just like a diet willnot work if you keep eating junk food, the Spiritual Science of Yoga will not work if you are constantly eating impurities through the mind and body.

        ""<< No organization. >>
        There are quite a few gurus & ashrams that would dissagree with you on that.""

        Well the fact that people gather around a guru/yoga teacher does not mean that in order for one to do yoga, and have it work they must buy into a path. Yet there are paths to teach it. They essentially are schools, yet a person does not have to go to a school to learn. Yoga works energetically regardless of whether or not there is a specific teacher teaching them

        ""I also find it really interesting how often the same people who are sure yoga isn't a relilgion are signing off their postings with "namaste". What's that about? ""

        Namaste means - the light or divinity in me honors the light or divinity in you. Acknowledgeing the beauty of the divinity within each person or thing is simply a way to stay connected to truth and the present moment. This is one of the most important teachings. Acknowledging the divinity within each person is another way to Scientifically open the heart, called Bhakti yoga.

        Yoga is the mystical heritage of Hinduism, it's Scientific counterpart. Hinduism creates a paradigm through which the mind can be uplifted once the Scientific technologies of Yoga have given an EXPERIENCE of truth. Then a path of greater an ever greater unfolding truth is sipported by the devotional quality in Hinduism. Yet hinduism is not necessary for a person to become enlightened through Yoga. It simply gives a support for the heart and mind to be uplifted.
        • Re: Is yoga a religion?

          Tue, December 6, 2005 - 3:37 PM
          Hi Sam,

          In the context of how they're traditionally taught, I think the yamas & niyamas are precepts just as much as the 10 commandments. Everyone has a choice as to how they choose to follow them.

          I don't disagree with you that there can be great benefits from following these precepts, but I think you need to draw the line between what can be called science (remember the scientific method?) and what is more like ancient wisdom. Otherwise, you end up sounding like those people who argue that intellegent design is just as scientific as the theory of evolution.

          << Well the fact that people gather around a guru/yoga teacher does not mean that in order for one to do yoga, and have it work they must buy into a path.>>

          Everyone has the choice to engage at whatever level they chose to with all religions. This does not change the fact that they're religions. I can attend a midnight mass if I want to celebrate Christmas that way or recite prayers with friends at a Seder if I believe there's some value in that and I can still remain pretty ambivilant in my beliefs & practices about Catholicism or Judeaism. This doesn't mean that they're not religions.

          I think what we have here is an answer to a different question, namely: "If you 'do yoga', does that mean you have to adopt yoga as your religion, the same way one becomes 'born again' or converts to some other faith?" Of course, the answer is no. But, the fact that you can choose your level of engagement with yoga doesn't mean that it isn't a religion. It's just very different from most religions that we're familiar with.

          Whatever meaning you want to attribute to the word 'namaste', I think it definitely can come off as "holier than thou" to a lot of people when overused outside of a yoga class. I don't think there's any bhakti yoga in making sure people know you're more spiritual than them. The bhakti yogi is striving for selflessness in his/her devotion to others.

          I hope my playing devil's advocate here doesn't give anyone the wrong impression. I have no arguement with any of the good things anyone has said about yoga. I just think a lot of people aren't really being completely honest with themselves around this question because thinking of yoga as a religion would somehow automatically make it bad since all religions are bad.

          Look at this definition of religion from Merriam Webster on-line. ( www.m-w.com/dictionary/religion ). I think most of what's there applies to yoga.
          • Re: Is yoga a religion?

            Wed, October 1, 2008 - 7:35 PM
            Benjamin,

            WELL SAID! Well said indeed friend.

            Science is science and religion is religion.

            What is the definition of religion anyways? I believe it is an organized set of beliefs. What is Yoga if not an organized set of beliefs? We say it's scientific so the people practicing the postures or learning a bit more about yoga don't have conflictions with the set of beliefs they choose to adhere themselves to. It's our way of broadening anyones mind ( & body) without stepping on the toes of ANY belief system. That being said... I believe it's still a form of a religion. Just not one that feels it needs the entire world to believe it.

            So basically, Yoga is Religion in it's securest form : )b

            K
            • Re: Is yoga a religion?

              Wed, October 1, 2008 - 7:37 PM
              Correction..
              An organized set of Spritual beliefs that CANNOT entriely be proven... Otherwise Science would in fact be a religion as well : )

              Sure there may be be aspects of following a Yogic Diet that can be proven, but there's much more that can't be proven (such as in the Sutras) then can be.
        • Re: Is yoga a religion?

          Thu, December 8, 2005 - 11:52 AM
          Benjamin,

          The yamas and niyamas are not dogma. Patanjali (and all other yogis) do not say that you will burn in hell if you don't follow them. They are presented and interpreted in shades of grey, and not in the dogmatic black and white of the 10 commandments. Just look at the words: "commandments" vs. yama/niyama "restraint or moral observances". Can you see the difference between "Thy shall not kill" and "Ahisma / Non-violence"? One is very specific and the second is pretty general. The 10 commandments are considered the word and will of god, while Patanjali was just some cool guy who put the 8 Limbs down on paper. See the difference?

          And Patanjali was talking exclusively about Raja Yoga; when you look at the other yogic paths of Bhakti, Jnana, Karma, Tantra and Hatha there is no mention of the yamas and niyamas in their classic texts or practices. Each Yoga has its own set of "limbs" that provides a guide for spiritual practice. All Christians, whether they are a Catholic or a Methodist, absolutely believe in the 10 commandments; you cannot say you are a Christian without this belief. You do not see this at all in the world of yoga, because the yamas and niyamas are a spiritual practice, not a religious belief.

          Benjamin, there is a clear difference between religion and spirituality. This difference has nothing to do with believing "all religions are bad," because I don't. Let me give you a very clear example: Prayer is a spiritual practice, not a religion. You can pray to anybody or anything using the technique of prayer. It is not a religion by itself. Yet prayer is used by different religions in different ways and there are specific prayers that are indeed religious because of their content.

          And Namaste actually does mean "I honor the Divine within you" and not "I am way more spiritual than you." And it's kind of funny how you used "spiritual" in that sentence rather than "religious". Hmmm.

          Namaste,
          Timothy
          • Re: Is yoga a religion?

            Thu, December 8, 2005 - 2:28 PM
            Timothy,

            The dictionary doesn't draw the same distinction between dogma ( www.m-w.com/dictionary/dogma )& precepts ( www.m-w.com/dictionary/precepts ) that you do. A precept is basically a guide for action; while a dogma is a doctrine &/or guide for action that can be presented authoritatively (ie with the idea of you must or should do it.)

            I've heard gurus teaching their students about the yamas & nyamas referring to some action that goes against them as a "sin". They may not use the same level of scare tactics, but I see that as a difference in degree not of substance.

            I think we all have just as much ability to chose whether follow the 10 commnandments as we do the yamas & nyamas.
            • Re: Is yoga a religion?

              Sat, December 10, 2005 - 7:18 AM
              Aha! I think I know what your problem is Benjamin. You are hanging around the wrong gurus!

              I've only heard and read the yamas & nyamas defined and discussed in the postive. From B.K.S. Iyengar "When the sadhaka is firmly established in the practice of truth, his words become so potent that whatever he says comes to realization" (sutra II:36). Notice there are no "shoulds" here, no guide to action. The yamas and niyamas are presented as simple statements without telling you what to do and without any emotional hooks. Sure a guru or someone like yourself can add these in, but it is clear from Iyengar's translation that this was not the original intent of Patanjali.

              Namaste,
              Timothy
              • Re: Is yoga a religion?

                Sun, December 11, 2005 - 7:31 PM
                Timothy, I think the main difference between our points of view is you're arguing about whether yoga's a religion based on your own *opinion* of what consitutes a religion. I'm trying to use an impartial source of defition -- like the dictionary I cited above. If you look at that one, I don't see how you can say it can't be applied to yoga as well. But, of course you're entitled to your opinion.

                (btw: i am famiar with mr. iyengar's works. i'm in the process of reading his "light on life" which i'm finding quite inspiring so far)
                • Re: Is yoga a religion?

                  Mon, December 12, 2005 - 10:39 AM
                  Jeepers Benjamin. I don't see how your definitions prove anything, especially when you back them up with such poor examples, and personal opinions. That is why I've been politely ignoring them so far.

                  But ok, let's go back and look at your referenced definition of religion: "the service and worship of God" and compare that with the definition of spiritual "relating to, consisting of, or affecting the spirit." Yoga doesn't service or worship anything, let alone a specific God. The core concept used in yoga is Brahman, which is completely without personality or form, and is described as the oneness of all present, past and future. Both Brahman and its internal aspect of Atman are at best translated as "soul or spirit" and they would never be able to be translated as "God." So yoga clearly fits with the definition of spiritual and does not resemble anything like the definition of religion you have referenced.

                  Om Shanti,
                  Timothy
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Is yoga a religion?

                    Mon, December 12, 2005 - 11:08 PM
                    um, it seems u cherry-picked the definition. there's more to it that's more inlcusive & can apply to not just service & worship of "capital-G" God. Brahman doesn't equate exactly to the same concept of "capital-G" God for most Christians, but that's not a requirement for a religion. I'm traveling & my time on-line is limited, so i'm gonna hafta let this go.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Is yoga a religion?

                    Thu, December 15, 2005 - 6:28 PM
                    Nice try Timothy, but if a person is determined to prove something based on their opinion of a dictionary definition, so be it., We are all entitled to our opinion.

                    Benjamin, what this insistence that "Yoga can be defined as a Religion using the Dictionary" getting you. Is it taking you any closer to peace or truth?

                    Yoga practices lead to a dissolving of the boundaries we create through attachment to these intellectual paradigms and strategies that have cut us off from the greater flow of love and truth that are everpresent.

                    Yoga consists of techniques and practices, not beliefs. There is no belief required for yoga to work, anymore than there is belief required for aspirin to work or other types of medicine or scientific methods, If you do them they work.

                    No big deal Benjamin.. I can tell you are nice guy and I'm glad you are on the path..

                    Namaste to all!
                    • Re: Is yoga a religion?

                      Fri, December 16, 2005 - 7:35 AM
                      Hey Sam,

                      I'm not really on a mission to convert people to my way of thinking, but I do think (esp. after spending the last 3 days visiting Angkor Wat) that "religions" come in many different forms for different cultures. I think from an anthropological point of view, different types of belief systems develop that fill the need that the "religions" we're most familiar with fill for segments of our culture.

                      So, from that point of view, I think is culturally arrogant to say that yoga isn't a religion when it has a very rich guru to student oral tradition as well as writings of its teachings.

                      I agree with you, that yoga is one place where you can find evidence of the common goal of most of these belief systems. I don't think it's the only place. I don't say that because I think you were making that claim.

                      Techniques & practices can be part of the definition of a religion -- per the one I cited. Why are you so opposed to letting yoga be a religion? Would that stop you or anyone for getting its benefits?

                      I think I dissagree with you, to some degree, about there not being any requirement for belief. I think most yoga writings are clear that in order to get the most benefits you must have a determined (isn't that part of what the word "tapas" means) practice, which -- to me -- implies a desire for the promised benefits. Sounds like belief to me.

                      Sam, I respect you & appreciate your thoughts on this. So, I hope you take this in the spirit of a friendly discussion that would probably be much better in person.
                      • Re: Is yoga a religion?

                        Sat, December 17, 2005 - 11:12 AM
                        Benjamin,

                        I finally get it... everything is a religion! Cooking (a technique) is now a religion. Masturbation (a practice) is now a religion. Science (a belief system) is now a religion. And they all are done for their benefits and there are writings and teachings for all of these!

                        << Why are you so opposed to letting yoga be a religion? >>

                        Because it's not.

                        << Would that stop you or anyone for getting its benefits? >>

                        Calling yoga a religion would prevent religious people from practicing yoga. Christians already have a hard time practicing yoga without it labeled as a religion. It would also keep yoga out of public schools and public spaces.

                        And I didn't check the dictionary yet, but I'm pretty sure desire is not the same thing as belief.

                        Namaste,
                        Timothy
                        • Re: Is yoga a religion?

                          Sun, December 18, 2005 - 7:32 AM
                          I've been practicing for over 30 years and teaching for three years. Please do not consider my remarks received wisdom. I am just a continuing beginner in yoga. I believe, however, that many long time yogis would express views to mine:

                          Is yoga a religion?

                          No, it's not. It's a spiritual pursuit, however.

                          If one makes yoga a religion, it becomes inacessible to many, for whom religion is a direct communication with God and which may have some firm rules on pursuing the path God has revealed to that individual.

                          And YES, especially with laws regarding the seperation of Church and State in the US, (Thank God!) making yoga a religion would keep it out of schools and prevent certain types of government support.

                          Yoga doesn't need to be religion. It's something created by humanity to bring centering to body and spirit. That's not God's job; i's ours.

                          If you think the nuances of yoga being a religion are are subtle, go to a Bhuddist site! Many respected practioners *do not* consider it a religion. Others do. They talk about this endlessly.

                          And by the way, the Dali Llama said a few years ago that you do not have to change religions to practice Bhuddism. He favors staying where you are at unless you feel a very strong calling. So I don't think he cares.

                          So, keep your religion if you have one. Practice yoga. Remember there are many limbs and if you pursue them all, which you should, you will find yourself getting dangerously close to being a very good, very spiritual, and yes, very relgious person! Watch out. There is Truth in the universe and many paths lead to it. When you get there, you may meet the Author of Truth. If you do, tell me about it. I'm not there yet but still trying.
                      • Re: Is yoga a religion?

                        Fri, December 30, 2005 - 1:02 AM
                        "Sam, I respect you & appreciate your thoughts on this. So, I hope you take this in the spirit of a friendly discussion that would probably be much better in person. "

                        certainly Benjamin, same here. No offense. I am glad you are on the path.

                        This is raising hackles because of the charge around the word religion and the negative connotation it has for many.

                        So i would hope that when you speak of it as a religion you will speak of it fully also in that context. As a religion that not only has a path of devotion and Service but also a set of scientiic methods that give every person an embodied experience of the god within themselves, rather than requiring they worship one external deity outside of themsleves under the fear of eternal damnation, etc . Hopefully you are also explaining that Yoga accepts all Spiritual leaders from all paths as masters, Jesus, buddha, krsna, mohammed because it is also very important to the way most view religion, .. westerners i mean. They are used to a divisive dogma driven system.

                        If you are not telling people these important things also and just lumping yoga into the same category as other religions, i think you are doing a great disservice to them and perhaps contributing to a wrong impression. I want to see all benefit from the same good feeling and well-being that you and I have benefitted from with our Yoga practice.

                        Here is something uploaded to my YOga podcast website that has a chart on the differences between the Eastern and Western worldview and Spirituality.
                        www.yogapodcast.net

                        Namaste Benjamin.
          • Re: Is yoga a religion?

            Tue, December 20, 2005 - 1:26 PM
            I agree with Timothy here.

            For myself, when seeking to understand a word, I look first to its meaning. In this case, the difference between the Ten Commandments and Yama / Niyama, is clearly found in their definitions.

            Commandment: "a command; to direct with authority; rule"

            Yama: "ethical restraint"

            Niyama: "religious practices; observances"

            The Ten Commandments are considered dogma by most religious authorities who study them; meaning, they are not to be disputed.

            The Yamas / Niyamas are ethical suggestions and moral guidelines. There is nothing manditory about them. In fact, in the older Hathayog texts - namely those from the Nath Sampradaya - they are not mentioned at all.

            Be Whole!
            Siddhananda Devi

            tribes.tribe.net/adi_tantra
            tribes.tribe.net/adi_ayurveda
            tribes.tribe.net/hamsa_yoga
            • Re: Is yoga a religion?

              Wed, December 28, 2005 - 5:46 AM
              that's great you look at definitions for those words. it's too bad no one is willing to provide an objective definition of "religion". it would make it a lot easier to have a logical discussion here.
    • Re: Is yoga a religion?

      Mon, December 5, 2005 - 10:35 AM
      Jai Guru

      The history of Yoga finds its origin in the teachings of Adinatha carried through Agastha to Dattatreya to Parashurama. It is evident in the text Tripurarahasya. Another lineage starts Ashtavakra to Janaka evident in Ashtavakra Samhita. Another lineage starts from Kapila to Devahuti evident in Sankya Darshana. Another lineage comes Balabhadra to Krishna to Arjuna evident in Shrimad Bhagavat Mahadpuran and Bhagavad Gita. All these lineages were correlated somewhere, evident in the textual contents, but historicity lost. All these schools of Yoga in their inherent nature were non-vedic. Philosophy of Yoga has been derived from the shamanic understandings and empirical sciences of nature. Yogic philosophy is basically existentialism. The central point of Yoga is to find out the parallels between rules of human life and that of cosmos. Yoga teaches not to find a God but to become the God. Human nature and life is the focal point of Yoga. This non-vedic school revolting against the metaphysical mysticism of the vedas was later accepted by the vedics in many parts. Today, it is very difficult to separate yogic and vedic schools in the Hindu system. The pure form of non-vedic Yoga follows the lineage of Tantra through Jaina –Buddhist-Shaiva-Shakta-Vaishnava traditions.

      -K.S.
    • Re: Is yoga a religion?

      Wed, October 7, 2009 - 11:33 PM
      I don't know anything about Yoga, just that it's a branch of Hinduism. [I'm interested in this as a spiritual practice/path.] I suppose I could be wrong since I don't know much about it, but like Buddhism, some say that Buddhism is not a "religion" because it's basic teaching has no "god" depending on your sect and culture, or doesn't teach the existence of "god" nor does it deny the existence of a "god."

      Buddhism can also be "science," a philosophy, but does that mean it's not a "religion" in the western way of thinking?

      Like some say Yoga is a "science" not a "religion," but some may view it as a "religion" to me if it's a dedicated practice it's a "religion" protected by the constitution for freedom of "religious" practice.

      We have people who like to attack other peoples way of life, or spiritual way of life, their spiritual belief system. They like to say these practices are not religions, so they can have a valid reason to attack that path because if it's not a Christian path or a religion in the western way of thinking a monotheistic path.

      Recently during the Bush administration, Bush created the "faith based initiative" to help specific religions get some tax payer funding. [whether you like this or not] Some groups were denied funding because allegedly they were not a "religion." The group denied was the practice of Wiccan, a nature based religious practice. I'm not sure what the end result was or if it was challenged, but in my opinion Wiccan is a faith older than Christianity, but some people like to dispute that because that's just the way Christianity is, they like to consider them devil worshipers to.

      That just shows the bias in the "faith based initiative" that the Bush administration started which largely favored Christianity, which is a religious practice that pretty much attacks any other faith or spiritual practice, and/or calls them devil worshipers. I heard one Christian leader several years back preach that Buddhists worship the devil because we have Buddhist statues at our alters, these are not "gods" nor do we worship them.

      Those people would like to do all they can to suppress Buddhism or any other spiritual practice by stating it's not a religion, so they have a right to attack it.

      However, for this purpose Buddhism is a "religion" protected by the constitution under the freedom of religious practice.

      Is Yoga a religious practice, I don't know, but I would guess that if you take this practice deeper than going to the gym and doing a few stretches, then I would say it's a spiritual religion protected by the Constitution under freedom of religious practice, if your in the US.

      If it's not a religion then it's not protected under freedom of religious practice. I think a lot of this is just the way westerners view things in comparison to Asian cultures and way of thinking.

      Maybe it shouldn't matter whether it's a "religion" or a "spiritual" practice or "science", and I'd say it shouldn't matter, but we live in a western society that discriminates and/or has bias toward other spiritual practices, and I feel for this reason it should be considered a "religion" for the purpose of protecting it's practice, because we have a right to our spiritual practice.

      This is my opinion. I'm not an expert, it's just what I see.
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    Re: Is yoga a religion?

    Mon, December 5, 2005 - 10:37 AM
    in this hick town i teach in i can't even use the sanskrit words for poses because the people ARE VERY MUCH AFRAID that anything other than "just stretching" is a religious connotation. very soul-less. very sad.

    i was told the by students last week in one very preachy class that if i just found jesus i would be happy in my life there in the harsh, dry unforgiving desert with harsh dry unforgiving people (they didn't use those words but it is the truth. lol! many here live in a religious right vacuum).

    i didn't get into it, but if that sort of talk continues this week i'll tell them that: #1. i am comfortable with where i am spiritually (or at least the path i am taking and the journey there); and #2. any person, congregation or denomination that considers themselves the only ones going to heaven are simply ignorant. i find evil in that kind of thinking. i don't think it was what the powers that be intended. it is the problem with christian thinking.

    as much as i try to think that there is no religion in yoga i think that to follow it fully there is a religious/spiritual aspect to it that can't be denied. but my thinking is that all of these labels of religions are just that. they all derive to the same end: a supreme being/spirit; interconnectedness between humans (eastern religions delve more deeply into this thought) and being compassionate human beings toward all living things -- including our earth.

    I THINK MORE PEOPLE SHOULD EMBRACE THE DEEPER INNER SIDE OF YOGA!!!!!! what a nice world it would be. namaste.
    • Re: Is yoga a religion?

      Wed, December 7, 2005 - 8:39 PM
      i've worked with the 'religion vs. spirituality' thing for years, and i've pretty much given up on finding an answer that can fully please anyone. i'll throw in my two bits, all the same.

      "Religion" is something that is often negatively seen, while "spirituality" is something that is more easily accepted. Studying various religions in college, i found that it was so easy to get swamped in the details of any particular religion, and after a while of that i remembered that all of these systems (which were greatly reified by scholars in the last few hundred years in their search for absolutes) were organic, evolving entities, linked to the people who experienced, supported, engaged in, imagined them...linked to culture as a whole. In studying a variety of religions, from east to west, i was taking a look into the hearts of generations upon generations of people giving words, symbols, images to the mysterious divine source.

      i seem to find that those practicing "Spiritual" systems and practices often balk at being tied to religion because of the connotations that religion is less apt to change, less individual, less mystical, and that many interpretations of various religions make room for...well, disharmony, pain, and war.

      i'm in danger of talking myself into a hole of vagaries that i wont be able to unravel...here's a personal experience, as a once-practicing witch. "Wicca" is the religion (read: mythos, values, god and goddess), "witchcraft" is the spiritual science of interacting with energy. you can be a wiccan without being a witch. you can be a witch that isn's wiccan. i've "been" both, as i've evolved. Practicing witchcraft with the broad worldview Wicca has to offer, goddess-names and god-names, standards of conduct, enriched and expanded my practice and allowed me to feel more connected with greater truth. i needed that, needed both, and it has been a step in bringing me where i am now. I'm not in that place anymore, and have moved on.

      I feel that the down-to-earth physical practice that witchcraft, yoga, martial arts, bodywork, all represent to me, have been what's really propelled my growth, because it's been experiential, tangible, and gifted me with tools that help me stay present and move through difficulty. Its a way of life, and it brings meaning and growth to my everyday existence. I think religion provides the same to those with whom it resonates...different strokes.

      words words words - thanks for those who took the time to read my rambling!
      • Unsu...
         

        Re: Is yoga a religion?

        Fri, December 9, 2005 - 7:49 AM
        > "i seem to find that those practicing "Spiritual" systems and practices often balk at being tied to religion because of the connotations that religion is less apt to change, less individual, less mystical, and that many interpretations of various religions make room for...well, disharmony, pain, and war." <

        this sums it up very nicely!!!! i've always been spiritual but have not clung to any one religion because frankly they freak me out!!!!! i've known this since i was a child!

        but the problem is that people -- especially westerners -- will pretty much tell you that you are going to hell if you do not believe as their church believes. this is so damaging to humankind. rather presumptuous as well.
        • Re: Is yoga a religion?

          Sun, December 18, 2005 - 7:52 AM
          hi friends,
          entertaining discussion.

          i found it interesting that in the banter about Yamas and Niyamas, no one mentioned Isvara Pranidhana.
          Devotion to God is the general translation.
          Kind of tricky to teach the Yamas and Niyamas without talking about God.
          And even the translation of Yoga as Union is often translated as Union with God.
          So, what is the concept of God in the context of Yoga? this may help our friend in the midwest.
          I'm really careful when i teach to make my classes accessible to folks of all religions including atheists.
          I'm also really dedicated to including philosophy.
          So, then along comes Isvara Pranidhana.
          What to do?
          I usually give a little talk about inserting your own understanding and word for God- Jah, Ma, Allah, Buddha, Jesus, Nature, Energy, INSERT WORD HERE, and have devotion to that. If you ask Yoga for answers about what is Isvara, you will get answers from the Indian traditions, including yes Brahman the formless void and also the trinity of Brahma Vishnu and Shiva and the whole array of Hindu mythology... which can all be taken literally and you can go do puja or you can also interpret everything philosophically. i like both m'self.

          In the Yamas and Niyamas then we still have this issue, devotion to Isvara. how do you solve that?
          Thankfully Patanjali himself gave a lot of definitions of what is Isvara.... and what is devotion to Isvara as a practice. Aum is Isvara, he says, and chanting Aum with that consciousness is Isvara Pranidhana. Great. He gives other definitions too, but that one usually sets my students at ease. Helps them to see that there really is some flexibility here...

          If you do go to yoga looking for religion tho, you can get plenty of answers also.
          Isvara is a Sanskrit word for God, but one that my own teacher Swami Dayananda leaves untranslated usually because people in the west have been taught this idea of God as a man in the sky, in heaven, who has this address in heaven and therefore is not in other places, and that is not the concept of God he is interested in sharing and so he uses a different word Isvara to keep that clear, to start new. And then being a non-dualist goes through a whole teaching about Cittanandarupa Shivoham Shivoham, the oneness of the consciousness with Isvara. Yet no one has to ask him, to be on the yogic path following the Yamas and Niyamas. They can look at the Isvara Pranidhana and say oh! okay! I pray to Jesus and Mary! Check! and move on. or they can say oh! well I believe in the formless void and so i practice devotion to that by emptying my mind! check!

          you can therefore be a fully practicing yogi of any which religion you want or none at all.

          controversial mixing of terms here, but yoga is a science of religions. you can take your pick. the point of the yamas and niyamas is to consider them, ie. one need not take ahimsa to mean not killing mosquitos during a westnile outbreak, it means choosing the path of least harm. similarly one must consider what devotion to Isvara means to you. maybe it means you pick a religion. maybe it means you decide you are god and you'll devote yourself to loving yourself up. fun.
          • Unsu...
             

            Re: Is yoga a religion?

            Sat, January 7, 2006 - 3:05 PM
            i wish i could get these born-agains to chant "aum" so they could see and feel how powerful and up-lifting it is. but again, they wouldn't touch it. too afraid of what they might actually be chanting. people from "other religions, false religions" are always trying to trick them away from "god".
        • Re: Is yoga a religion?

          Tue, July 21, 2009 - 11:16 AM
          "but the problem is that people -- especially westerners -- will pretty much tell you that you are going to..."


          ahem... I think you mean some bible beating christians... not neccessarily westerners. remember we have many religious traditions in the west.
  • Re: Is yoga a religion?

    Sun, December 18, 2005 - 7:44 AM
    Well, since we're spiritual beings having a human form experience and not the other way around. Yoga, or taking a crap, or cooking a meal, or paying a bill, would be even IMO.

    If you're aware of being a spiritual being and observing yourself in this form, like you've observed yourself in countless other forms throughout the eons. Then it's just another episode in the dream.

    Being aware of the spiritual self within all this form is the easiest way to let go of the illusion that form is more real than the self.
    The self doesn't need form, whether it be religion, taking a crap, cooking a meal, or paying a bill. It's just attracted to form because form is so enticing and juicy. That's what got us sucked into this form bound dream in the first place.

    :D

    SA
  • Re: Is yoga a religion?

    Tue, December 20, 2005 - 1:12 PM
    For starters, your boyfriend would be a [non-yogin] ;)

    [[I am not talking about asana practice but more about the the spiritual practice of the vedic scriptures and using mantra and other aspects for self realization and union with god.]]
    ** This is only my perspective, the way I have come to understand this words.

    Hatha Yoga is a bodymind discipline. It is not a religion.

    Yoga, as expounded on in the Vedas - and other places - is a philosophy that can be approached from a religious position. Its a personal choice.

    [[I have been taught that Hinduism and the yoga teachings were traditions of spiritual practice but not really defined as religion in the western sense of organized religion.]]
    ** Mostly, what we have today is Yogic Philosophy that focus on spiritual teachings and practices. So in this, you are correct. Also, 'religion' in the West takes on a different meaning then that in the East. This is a cultural reflection.

    Now, this is where it gets fun .. lol .. Yoga means 'to yoke' and religion means 'to bind', which makes them similar.

    For my part, Yoga - in all its forms - is a philosophy that can lead to sadhana (spiritual practices). Which is the beauty of this approach: an atheist, a Christian, a Muslim, et all, can all adopt Yogic Philosophy into their religious perspective without distracting from the originals belief system (imo).

    Be Whole!
    Siddhananda Devi

    tribes.tribe.net/adi_tantra
    tribes.tribe.net/adi_ayurveda
    tribes.tribe.net/hamsa_yoga
    • Re: Is yoga a religion?

      Sat, January 7, 2006 - 8:43 AM
      Namaste y'all,

      I stumbled upon a great article that thouroughly disscusses this issue:

      Is Yoga a Religion?
      swamij.com/religion.htm

      Peace and blessings,
      Timothy
      • Re: Is yoga a religion?

        Sun, January 8, 2006 - 2:58 PM
        Let's try a different approach to this question. Why does yoga *need* to be a religion? Or why do some people need it to be a religion? Is there a shortage of religions? Is there not enough diversity? Are there not religions that preach kindness, tolerance, continence, regard for the body and spirit? And what if one is supremely happy in their religious faith? Is the door to yoga closed to them?

        Let us say, for example, that you are an orthodox Jew. If yoga is a religion, you absolutely cannot practice it. Is that what we who believe in yoga want?
      • Re: Is yoga a religion?

        Sun, January 8, 2006 - 3:03 PM
        Timothy writes:

        I stumbled upon a great article that thouroughly disscusses this issue:

        Is Yoga a Religion?
        swamij.com/religion.htm

        An excellent site, Timothy. Thank you for turning me on to it. I've bookmarked it. There seems to be a lot there!

        Many, many thanks.
        • Re: Is yoga a religion?

          Mon, June 9, 2008 - 8:54 PM
          The Latin root word of religion means the same as sanskrit word yoga - - to reunite(to the source). In sanskrit the image of yoke that binds one to the source, in Latin with an image of a ligament binding muscle to bone. Over time, as with all things, change happens. Guess the question comes down to is one's own definition/understanding of each. All perspectives are only ideas, all valid from the a dualistic point of view and all nonsense from a non-dual view.
          • Re: Is yoga a religion

            Sat, September 27, 2008 - 7:31 PM
            To my knowledge, yoga has its roots prior to Hinduism and was simply formed by influence of animals and nature. Hinduism, being near in local and for many other reasons (seems like they picked up on the benefits) picked up on yoga and that causes the history of association. Of course there are branches of yoga that one would said is truly religious, however, some are not. I would label hatha yoga on the lesser end. I always have smartiepants that say "well the poses have Hindu names;" but as an anthropology major this bothers me "Hindu" would be pertaining to the religion whereas Hindi would be the language but regardless, the language is Sanskrit and it is literally that language. I'm sure we can all agree you can speak a language without being a believer in a religion associated with that language.

            On another note I know many religious denominations that skew yoga to their beliefs. I see where this comes from, it's simply personalizing, which I think is a basis of yoga to begin with, making it personalized and beneficial to you specifically.
            • Re: Is yoga a religion

              Sun, September 28, 2008 - 9:16 AM
              .......you need to practice Yoga religiously in order to have it do you any good.
              .....each religion has it's own yoga.
              ........yoga is a belief system.
              .......you need to have a personal relationship with your practice.
              ......You can have the religion of yoga?... or, the yoga of religion. Your choice.

              ......take yoga seriously, personaly, spiritualy..... for whatever it's worth.

              Namaste = have a nice day!

              briggi!
          • Re: Is yoga a religion?

            Thu, October 2, 2008 - 11:52 AM
            Indukanta,

            I def agree with your thoughts on the matter. And I wasn't aware of the correlation between the Latin term and Sanskrit. That's interesting and good info to know!

            Perhaps so many people have a hard time labelling Yoga as religion because of the negative stigmas that come along with most religions. Yoga seems to be the only one that shares beliefs not imposes them. And that's the main difference between the religion of Yoga and most other religions. Yoga can peacefully coexist with others.

            Like I said earlier, I feel we call Yoga a science, even though it is a definite form of religion, so other people don't have a hard time recieving the benefits of Yoga due to cultural and religious contradictions. I think presenting Yoga as a science was/is a wonderful way to present the practice but I also have the deep understanding that practicing Yoga in the form of Sutras, beyond physical posture, is a form of religion.

            Mayyyyybeeee... When talking about the physical postures exclusively, what we teach is not really Yoga but just one small form of it. Thus not really relaying the entire "religion" of Yoga.. thus not needing to label that form of teaching, a religion.

            K
            • Re: Is yoga a religion?

              Thu, October 2, 2008 - 1:58 PM
              What I see out there, here in the Bay Area, is that most people practice yoga, often mostly asana, without any intention or thought that yoga is a religion. For them it is not. I see that some, not many, people bring yoga into a spirtual practice that is like a religion to them. For them it is. It seems like it could become either for someone. I have heard "the oppisite is also true". Does that apply here.
  • Re: Is yoga a religion?

    Fri, November 21, 2008 - 9:15 AM
    Yoga Sanskrit= to yoke, to connect to God.

    Religion latin= to relink, to connect to God.


    Hinduism is not a religion but rather a family of completely different religions.

    It is more of a geographical term denoting those who follow the religions indigenous to India. It started off as a derogatory term.
    • Re: Is yoga a religion?

      Fri, November 21, 2008 - 6:11 PM
      Yes, it is..... if you choose to practice it as such.
      • Re: Is yoga a religion?

        Fri, November 21, 2008 - 10:13 PM
        namaste= hello or goodbye. It's like saying "greetings". Or "wadup?".

        Maybe etymologically it means "the divine light in me recognises the divine light in you, brother-man", but in practicality that's not how it's used in modern life. I have been told by numerous people here in India that they find it absolutely hilarious that New Agers sign off their letters with namaste.

        Also in yoga classes in India nobody ends or begins the class with namaste, or even the more formal (and perhaps appropriate) "namaskaar", even when they are teaching in Hindi. Hmmmm. I have heard "have a nice day", though. ;)
        • Re: Is yoga a religion?

          Mon, December 8, 2008 - 1:42 PM
          Well a good question would be: Is Hinduism a religion? Not in the usual sense. Here's an interesting link :

          hinduism.about.com/od/basic...duism.htm

          But that's kind of a side note. I think yoga is what you practice it to be! If it's stretching or cross training or spirituality, really that depends on the attitude you bring to it. Asana is a set of poses that even my kids do without knowing they do "yoga" (anyone ever touch their toes? I mean really). But "Yoga" is a whole philosophy. So I guess one could say "I do poses" versus "I do YOGA " and mean two completely different things....
          • Re: Is yoga a religion?

            Mon, December 8, 2008 - 3:23 PM
            I think what people need to determine first is the definition of religion. Is it a definition we all agree upon or does the word "religion" mean one thing to one person and another thing to another? Defining this definitely helped me understand if what I was practicing was a religion or simply a 'practice'. And really, is there any difference?
        • Re: Is yoga a religion?

          Thu, December 11, 2008 - 3:31 PM
          Yes but is yoga a term that is only applicable to hatha/astanga practices or non-asana yoga such as jnana, karma, and bhakti yoga included in this term?
          • Re: Is yoga a religion?

            Fri, December 12, 2008 - 11:20 AM
            Yoga is not restricted to hatha. You are absolutely right that yoga is found through other practices. If yoga is "union" with spirit/divine/etc. then it can be found while driving in your car. It's not the activity but the result. That's why I say you can practice asana/poses without practicing "yoga" and you can practice yoga and not practice poses.
  • Re: Is yoga a religion?

    Sat, December 13, 2008 - 1:44 AM
    It is way of living/Art of living and has to do nothing with any Religion,region .
    OM
    • Re: Is yoga a religion?

      Sat, December 13, 2008 - 4:21 PM
      Anything can be a 'way of living'. However a way of living, that many many other people share, whose history dates back a thousand (or more) years.. Is a form of religion. IMO
      • K
        K
        offline 138

        Yoga means "Union", this is true. But union does not mean a specific or predetermined totality.

        To a Buddhist, yoga means union with one's own Buddha nature.

        As a Hindu might say, " My grandmother told me that god was within me and that the guru would take me to myself."

        This works equally well for a Buddhist yogi.

        The devotional aspects of any yoga ( Buddhist, Hindu etc. ) are always "religious". Guru yoga in Hinduism and Buddhism means essentially the same thing - connecting with the lineage on an inner level. All the esoteric schools of Buddhist tantra are based on guruyoga and lineage connection, through abhisekha and so forth..

        Yoga sadhana is always experimental, and so while there are formal precepts and principles, the practice is not based on any one belief. You do the practice and you get the result. It's empirical work.

        A Tibetan teacher, Trungpa Tulku, said
        "meditation is manual labor."
        Any hatha yogi would agree with that.

        The clearest answer is that "yoga is ALSO a religious approach", in that the inner meaning is definitely transcendent and soteriological,but that this does not mean that any one religious approach or set of definitions dominates or speaks for all.

        A good example is Ayurvedic medicine, which is Both Hindu and Buddhist at the same time, classically speaking. Hindu Ayurveds sometimes teach from Buddhist Ayurvedic classics. That is the proof. Ask Vedacarya Dr. David Frawley.

        Re Ma I
        "Philosophy of Yoga has been derived from the shamanic understandings and empirical sciences of nature. Yogic philosophy is basically existentialism. The central point of Yoga is to find out the parallels between rules of human life and that of cosmos. Yoga teaches not to find a God but to become the God. Human nature and life is the focal point of Yoga. This non-vedic school revolting against the metaphysical mysticism of the vedas was later accepted by the vedics in many parts. Today, it is very difficult to separate yogic and vedic schools in the Hindu system. The pure form of non-vedic Yoga follows the lineage of Tantra through Jaina –Buddhist-Shaiva-Shakta-Vaishnava traditions."

        The statement of Ma I is highly intelligent and very well informed.

        Sri Prabhupad said only the letters delivered to the mailbox of Lord Krsna are received. This is clearly a limited viewpoint which excludes many or most Hindus!

        Yoga is bigger than that. Yoga is clearly polytheist and also, in the Buddhist context, nontheistic. There are many cosmic forces, but nobody actually runs the show. The cosmos is bigger than any one actor, even any one cosmic actor.

        Hamlet:
        "There is more in heaven and earth than is dreamed of in your philosophies."

        The play is the thing!

        Acarya KT

        "In the final analysis, all talk is worthless. It is only the exact practice which yields a result." - Yogi Bhajan
        • K
          K
          offline 138

          Re: Yoga is not restricted to hatha

          Fri, January 2, 2009 - 3:19 PM

          Re Candice:
          "Yoga is not restricted to hatha. You are absolutely right that yoga is found through other practices. If yoga is "union" with spirit/divine/etc. then it can be found while driving in your car. It's not the activity but the result. That's why I say you can practice asana/poses without practicing "yoga" and you can practice yoga and not practice poses."

          Yes Yes and Yes.

          This is true in the classical sense.

          There is the practice of jnana yoga, which need not rely on *any* physical poses. Key jnana yoga practices are meant to be practiced any where or time, and another key example is sleep / dream yoga, which is a primary Tibetan Buddhist practice depending on visualization.

          I myself do lots of mantra yoga on the bus and when walking. So mantra does not depend on sitting or walking. I can do mantra while washing the dishes. So that's the proof.

          Best,
          KT

        • K,

          So might Yoga be the Religion of Union?
          • ....not only that but it's a Union of Religion with physical culture.

            Lord Shiva, with his shakti the Goddess bountiful Parvati, are avatars which gives a recognizable picture to the higher power aspired to by yogis and yoginis throughout this reality. Contemplate the picture... recognize the aspects... to see what it's about.

            Om shanti Shiva,./.. BOM Shankar!
            • K
              K
              offline 138


              Re: Is yoga a religion? Question from Katrina to me. Ans: Union With Authentic Sadhana and Union With Our Own Human Potential.


              Re Katrina, in response to a direct public question

              "K, So might Yoga be the Religion of Union? "

              Okay, this is very very deep stuff, and I want to give a broadly useful and authentic classical answer.

              I happen to "know" what yoga "means" in the Hindu, 3H0 Sikh, and tantric Buddhist traditions. I am a vajrayana guru and I have completed ten thousand hours of mantra, and lots of pranayam and so forth.

              First of all, Yoga is a Practice, a Whole Person Practice. This is in general very different from religion and religious belief. Much or most religious belief is outwardly focused based on presumed self-existing "creator god", and that is Not what yoga is about, not in general and not in the deeper sense.

              Classically, yoga is a transmitted inner spiritual discipline traceable in different lineages from classical Sanskritic India.

              Religion is basically a cultural and/ or legal definition. So, Scientology and Mormonism ( Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints ) are both functioning religions. Neither is a yoga. Neither is anything like yoga.

              In fact, under the Islamic Law of Egypt and also Iran, yoga, including simple hatha yoga, is illegal, immoral, and a threat to society! That's their idea of culture and civilization and social responsibility. That's Islamic religion and "culture" for you. See how far their commitment to the One True God got them, in Iraq and Iran and so forth.

              Look people, religion is nothing or or less than a social construct and group consensus. There is absolutely no historical basic for the legally recognized religions Mormonism or Scientology. And what the Roman Catholic Church did in Europe has no real basis in the teachings of Jesus the Nazarene.

              There is however a real historical basis for Hindu yoga sadhana and Buddhist yoga sadhana, and it's not just a belief system. Hindu and Buddhist systems of yoga practice derive from classical Sanskritic culture, and they are functional.

              The tantric yogas share a subtle energetic science and subtle energetic medicine, which has to do with channels winds and drops, or in Sanskrit, "nadi, prana, and bindu". In key respects the Hindu and Buddhist systems of practice are based on the same or comparable approach to human energy systems.

              That's why they share the Hindu Buddhist system of Medicine known as Ayurveda. The system and historical lineage of Ayurveda includes both Hindu AND Buddhist spiritual doctors. It's not about mere religious belief, it's about a functional theory and methodology for working with imbalances and energy flows in the human body, in the cakras and so forth.

              Both the Hindu and Buddhist schools of Ayurveda make substantial use of pranamaya yoga, breath modulation. But that is completely unrelated to religious belief. It is actually a scientific discipline, just like physiology of gymnastics.

              The Hindu and Buddhist terminologies and approaches overlap, they are parallel, they are distinct. They sometimes use the same words in different ways, and sometimes use different words in the same ways. This happens also withing the different Buddhist traditions. But these differences have taxonomies and can be resolved and understood.

              Nothing in religion is inherently resolvable or understandable nor based on a functional methodology, that's why religion by definition is primarily based on faith!

              Yoga is based on practice, and on sadhana parampara, the "lineage and school of practice".

              Sometimes religion and yoga overlap, and sometimes they don't. The 3H0 Sikh religion is classically based on Hindu sadhana, but as a religion it is very distinct. I myself have found this system to be remarkable powerful and effective, but I use the sadhanas nontheistically ( pranayama and asana without Sikh mantras ).

              In 1983 I got personal yoga instruction from Yogi Bhajan, the main teacher of kundalini yoga in the West. You know what he gave me? A tai chi practice for grounding and raising energy! So it's all about the energy flows and the functional integration and development of our human capacities. That is spiritual work.

              In one basic sense, we can say that, yes, "Yoga is the Religion of Union." But the Buddhist meaning of this is very specific and clear, and basically at odds with all muggle religion.

              To a Buddhist, this statement means Union With One's Own Buddha Nature." To an esoteric Buddhist ( tantrika ), this means "Union With The Three Bodies", i.e. with what in Buddhist Sanskrit is known as Trikaya. The technical term Trikaya has three parts
              Nirmanakaya - manifest dimension of purity;
              Sambhogakaya - inner subtle energetic dimension of purity;
              Dharmakaya - primordial all pervasive dimension of emcompassing purity.

              And none of this key esoteric teaching has anything to do with a "creator god". It is a yogic doctrine and discipline which in some respects parallels Kasmiri Shaivism, but has no compatibility with muggle religion. Buddhist tantra is completely incompatible with Judaism, Orthodox Christianity and Islam.

              And since, overall, religious and cultural history is dominated by Middle Eastern religions, this means Buddhism and Buddhist yoga is ( to almost everyone ) irreligious and an offense to the purported creator god. More broadly speaking, Buddhism ( Buddha-dharma ) completely contradicts the conventional notion of religion-as-bhakti, while completely fulfilling the Hindu notion of religion-as-dharma. So we have to go back to the Sanskrit roots in both etymology and parampara and so forth to get the definitions clear.

              In both the Hindu and Buddhist cultures from classical times, there is a definite sense of direct engagement and direct knowledge. As Yogi Bhajan said
              "In the final analysis, all talk ( e.g. theology ) is worthless. It is only the exact practice which brings a result."
              He's absolutely correct in classical dharma terms.

              And what that means is that each system of practice must be approached in the right way, co-ordinating the theory and practice responsibly and authentically. Since Hindu and Buddhist and 3H0 kundalini yoga practice can be authentically approached on the basis of their shared foundation of Ayurvedic medicine and tantric human energy systems, that is what I do.

              So for me, tantra and yoga are part of system of medicine, *not* a religion. I'm a spiritual doctor, and overall I reject religion.
              Also for me, tantra and yoga are part of the overall work of raising consciousness, so I do this as a form of transpersonal psychology.
              Also, as a Buddhist guru, I do this as a form of social work and personal liberation.
              So these are the Unions ( yogas ) with which I consciously work. And they are all classical Sanskritic usages.

              But again, please keep in mind that these yogas, these yokings or unions, have nothing to inherently do with the notion of a creator god. The medicine, the psychology, the personal liberation, are all about union with the deeper, more profound human potential, up to and including Original Buddha Nature.

              I am very clear on the fact that in the deeper and more profound sense, yoga transcends any notion or notions of "religion". It's also way more useful through not being limited to one specific philosophy. I can help people by teaching yoga independent of religious philosophy, so long as the practice itself is classical ( sadhana parampara ) and appropriate.

              Here's a yoga sadhana reference for you:
              ""Asana Pranayama Mudra Bandha", by Swami Satyanananda Saraswati

              As far as the technical Buddhist Sanskrit term "trikaya", there are two ways of approaching this, Atiyoga and Mahamudra.

              The first way, Atiyoga, is defined in three parts as Vision, Meditation and Action. There is an excellent introduction to this, a book by the Tibetan master Namkhai Norbu. It is called
              "The Crystal and the Way of Light: Sutra, Tantra, and Dzogchen".
              This is a brilliant, extraordinary and inspiring book. It is very accessible.

              The second approach to Trikaya is Mahamudra, which is defined in three parts: Basis, Path and Result. For this I recommend strongly the very direct teachings and transmissions of the Kagyu lineage of Indo-Tibetan Buddhism, and specifically, initiation into the practice of Milarepa Guruyoga, which covers all the Mahamudra grouping of tantric practices.

              Closely associated with the Milarepa Guruyoga is the set of practices centering on Goddess Vajrayogini, for which I have already posted teachings to about sixteen tribes. But please understand, these sadhanas are not about dualistic religious worship. On an inner level, they are about finding, purifying, and liberating one's own primordial Buddha nature. So as a yoga it is still the opposite of what most people call religion.

              As far as 3H0 kundalini yoga, I recommend the books of Ravi Singh and also all those by Guru Rattan Kaur Khalsa PhD.

              So these texts and sadhanas are Hindu, Buddhist and Sikh, but they all work and they all work together. That's because they can be approached as Direct Personal Practices without the blinders and limitations of, you know, theological dogma and dualistic faith and muggle materialism.

              So, on the basic existential level, what we are really talking about is Union With Authentic Sadhana and Union With Our Own Human Potential. That's the real union. Everything else is just window dressing and wishful thinking and social conditioning, and really, just ignorance.

              If anyone truly wants to develop their own inner potential, then the way forward is clear. The means are not lacking. What really matters now is the human potential movement, both inner and outer together. That means we have to take the big step of liberating yoga from the severe limitations of religious and materialist dogmas.

              You have been helped.
              Sarva mangalam! Siddhi rastu!

              KT

              Hamlet : There is more in heaven and earth, Horatio, than is dreamt of in your philosophies.
              • K

                What's your personal definition of Religion? Let's get that out of the way first. Not a textbook definition. But your own. Something simple that doesn't take me more than 20 minutes to digest. Not that you're words aren't worth the digesting, but I have kids to pick up in 20 minutes, dinner to make, hugs to give and little people's fascinating school day stories to listen to ; )

                KB
                • I am agreeing with K-ji about one thing: If your definition of religion is limited to proletariat fundamentalism, then you can't be blamed for thginking that there has to be something better than that. Some religions just plain give religion a bad name.

                  But let's broaden our definition of religion to include other forms of belief and sadhana (practice) that are out there in the world.

                  Brahmanism has as many and more creation legends as do the other systems. It's your option to have Brahma-Vishnu-Shiva as creators, or not.... some people like to have answers to fhow all this originally got started. However, if of Life/Universe is an issue you'd rather shift to the back burner for now, then yoga can be practiced in a more spplied specialized way.

                  Just know that the Yogic system has the answers to however deep you care to go.
  • Defining for Understanding

    Fri, January 9, 2009 - 6:57 AM
    In order to even begin to share a dialogue with anyone about the answer/s to this question, imo, people need to first define the term "Religion" in a personal way. That sets the parameters in which to answer the question. Otherwise, each one of us is a dust particle in a breezy room.
    • Re: Defining for Understanding

      Mon, January 12, 2009 - 2:23 PM
      I tried to introduce a completely objective definition of "Religion" www.merriam-webster.com/dictio...eligion
      and "Religious" www.merriam-webster.com/dictio...ligious to this discussion over a year ago. But a lot of people who had already decided for their own reasons that yoga is not a religion, objected to these, and yet offered no alternatives. The way I see it the following a faithful practice based on devotion to a concept of ultimate truth is what we're talking about here. Practice by itself is merely ritual, add the 2nd part and you have religion.
      • Re: Defining for Understanding

        Mon, January 12, 2009 - 4:17 PM
        Benjamin,

        I completely agree with that. I think people get hung up on the word 'religion' without first having an understandable definition of it. There's nothing at all wrong with Yoga being a religion, in fact if there ever was a complete religion, Yoga / The Art of Union (through Sutras or whatever vedic.ancient texts) would be it.
      • Re: Defining for Understanding

        Mon, January 12, 2009 - 8:18 PM
        reference Benj... post>>

        To clarify: If your practice threatens to become "merely ritual", then things could easily degenerate to the level of didactic dogmatism,... which most folks mistakenly accept as what religion is.... having no idea nor vision of how good and how high it could be.

        One's sdhana is all about keeping focus, through contemplation/meditation, where the physical asana vinyasa becomes the meditation... and focus of contemplation. This practice is integral with spiritual aspiration [prana = breathing].
        • K
          K
          offline 138

          Re: Yoga Systems and Religious Beliefs

          Tue, January 13, 2009 - 12:13 PM


          Katrina to K
          "What's your personal definition of Religion?"

          Briggi ( on this thread )
          "........yoga is a belief system. "

          Well, this is an important and worthwhile discussion. People here have good intentions and are willing to communicate in functional ways. This is good communicaiton on a very important topic.

          I am glad to be able to participate and to help develop helpful and realistic understanding, and I also learn by understanding the perspectives of others. So I thank you.

          My perspective, in this context, is that of transpersonal psychology, tantra, kundalini yoga, and Buddhist tantra ( as individually licensed vajrayana guru ). There is a major and valuable overlap between these areas, much worth engaging.

          First, regarding Briggi ( who is a reaonable and thoughtful person:
          I respectfully disagree! No, Yoga is *not* a belief system. Yoga is sadhana and, more specifically, Sadhana Parmapara, Lineage of yogic discipline. Pure and simple.

          Second, regarding Katrina to me ( publically here ):
          a) I work primarily from a formal classical model of yoga known as Buddhatantra.

          b) Core classical Buddhatantra is not related to what westerners call religion, it is pretty much the opposite.

          c) I know what westerners ( including Catholics, Islamists, Sufis, Evangelicals, Calvinists, Jews etc. ) mean when they say "religion", each in their *own* way. They each rely upon very individual interpretations. These interpretations are basically dualistic.

          d) Dualistic religion is mostly *opposed* to inner spiritual discipline ( e.g. kung fu, tai chi, kundalini yoga, Buddhist tantra, etc. ). Examples are Roman Catholicism and Islamic Law ( Shia or Sunni ).

          e) Inner spiritual disciplines are basically practice oriented, progressive, and nondualistic.

          f) Inner spiritual disciplines are not comaptible with dualistic faith.

          g) Inner spiritual disciplines are in a deep and broad sense compatible with each other and strongly mutually supportive. They share function, principles, and methods. ( Kung fu practitioners should do some Indian style yoga. )

          h) Religious beliefs ( Hebrew, Christian, Islamic ) are basically all mutually incompatible. Religion is what DIVIDES people. They do *not* share principles, methods, or priorities. ( Only tose illiterate regarding history think that. )

          i) Religion ( religious belief ) is mostly an obstacle to inner spiritual practice, which must be functional and diagnostic and individualized, like the practice of medicine.

          j) Religion can be very destructive and antisocial, mostly develops delusion on all levels and contributes to personal and social insanity. Inner spiritual discipline - the classical kinds anyway - will typically evolve individuals to self understanding, honesty, respect and non-violence, health, emotional balance and maturity, and effective co-operation with others.

          k) As Guru Sakyamuni said
          "You are your own refuge. This refuge is hard to achieve."
          "Everything that is conditional passes. Be Your Own Light."

          Re Nityananada C
          "Yoga Sanskrit= to yoke, to connect to God.
          Religion latin= to relink, to connect to God."

          No, not in general. Buddhist yoga is union with one's own originally pure Buddha nature. In Buddhism there is no creator god, no dualistic faith in a salvific other, no externally decreed divine law, no one cosmic peson who owns this universe and so forth.

          Buddhism is about Karma and Dharma. It is a very simple, straightforward, functional, and transcendent system.

          And it works quite well.

          K T, inner medical tantrika
          • Re: Yoga Systems and Religious Beliefs

            Tue, January 13, 2009 - 3:27 PM
            KT,

            I'm following you to a point but what I would like from you, for me to communicate effectively, is your personal definition of Religion? Not anything or anyone else's definition of it as they are all subjective. Just a simple definition for what you perceive to define the term Religion? From there I will better understand if my thoughts can co-exist with your thoughts in a way where we *both understand the other* without getting involved in a long, drawn out diatribe or debate as tends to happen in these types of conversations. I'm looking for a remedial answer to a remedial question. It's that simple.

            Just one to a few sentences of your definition of the word Religion, such that you are satisfied with the terminology effectively describing your perspective on said term.. I see this one thing as vitally important..the corner stone, to this particular conversation we're engaged in.

            Respectfully,

            K
        • Re: Defining for Understanding

          Tue, January 13, 2009 - 12:48 PM
          Briggi, you seem to have seized on tangential item in my post and missed the main point. I was not making a comment on my personal sadhana or practice. You needn't worry there. I was attempting to draw the distinction between yoga as "practice" (as it's been called several times in this thread) and yoga as a religion. The latter being informed by a devotional belief in the principles and benefits of yoga (the 8 limbs, or the path, or however you see it) as an absolute truth.

          I do recognize your (& K's) great devotion to the truth in the teachings of yoga. However, in my opinion our difference lies in your position that a religion must be dogmatic or set itself dualistically apart from and in contention with other belief systems. Obviously, this is not the case with yoga. However, neither is it part of the basic definition of religion that I provided.
          • Re: Defining for Understanding

            Tue, January 13, 2009 - 12:53 PM
            no
            • Object: transition subjective to objective case

              Wed, January 14, 2009 - 12:01 AM
              In Russia, about three religions are recognized ... with people free to observe these. All other religions like Khrishna, 7th Day, LDS, Falun, etc, are deemed cults, and so are outlawed... much to the consternation of seekers of dharma and truth.
              Yoga, however, is thought of as a physical culture so it gets to slide, free of state intervention.

              In China, yoga is legal, but when associated with Spirit observance, or any form of ideology, then it's not.

              In USA you can practice yoga as calesthenics, or as a religion, or whatever you want. As to what it REALLY is, well you can see it as a system or not. But most yoga books published in the last 100 years seem to agree on a basic generic yoga system.
              • case-switching

                Sat, January 17, 2009 - 6:47 PM
                In yoga, we find a set of practices intending to bring non-physical benefits. In the culture that brings us the word 'religion', anything non-physical belongs to religion. So within that language's context it's not wrong for someone to say that yoga is a religion.

                But thankfully we have a mixing of context and a discussion about our place in this swirling mass of loveliness.

                I think asking whether yoga is a religion would be like asking 'what rank in the army does a congressman have, by virtue of being in congress?' It just doesn't work that way.

                Simultaneously, any person with devotion to a religion might decide to practice yoga or not practice yoga depending on whether what they know of yoga will help them in their spiritual development, given their commitment to a particular context. If yoga will pull them away from their context in the same way that a rival religion would, it is completely appropriate for them to express that opposition and completely appropriate for us to accept their discernment regarding this, and to not engage in judgment over their choice of vocabulary.
                • K
                  K
                  offline 138

                  Re: case-switching

                  Sat, January 17, 2009 - 7:31 PM
                  "but what I would like from you, for me to communicate effectively, is your personal definition of Religion?"

                  Religion is a social construct.

                  KT
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: case-switching

                    Sun, January 18, 2009 - 12:20 AM
                    KT,

                    I'm not asking what your opinion of Religion is, I'm asking you what your definition of Religion is? (which is of course opinion based... but a little more description, hence the word "define") I agree Religion is a social construct but that doesn't define the word in the LEAST.

                    I'm fresh out of ways to ask you what your personal definition of Religion is. When I'm at the point where I'm forgetting why I'm asking you a question, maybe it's time to give it up.. : ) You're an effective communicator when you have a point you wish to get across, and you're not unwilling to go to the depths of written word about it. I'm not sure why you are having such trouble personally defining Religion? Have you thought about what this word means to you in a clear and concise way?

                    KT>> "Religion is a social construct."

                    That's not a definition of a word. Otherwise everything that can be construed as a "Social Construct" would mean the same thing, and we wouldn't be clear about the myriad differences of ALL the types of Social Constructs. That's not the reality in communicating using words, otherwise EVERYTHING would be a broad / blanket generalization and nothing would truly be understood. Personally Define Religion KT. I know you have what I'm looking for. Maybe it's different than my definition and someone else's... But I KNOW there is a clear definition inside you of the word Religion. Not an opinion, a definition. (yes yes yes.. they're all opinions, but I think you know what I mean.. something a bit more personally descriptive of the word without writing an essay... a brief and clear summary that captures what this word means to you personally)

                    : )
                    • Re: case-switching

                      Sun, January 18, 2009 - 12:41 AM
                      KT,

                      I do appreciate your first response about the the differences in dualistic vs non dualistic Faith's. I truly do. And I follow you, but no where in your very well written ideas about your Faith vs "Religious" Faith, was there an encapsulation of what you perceive the word to mean. Your thoughts on the subject were progressive and more of a process of defining the *differences* of Religion and Inner Spiritual Disciplines.

                      But I do want you to know I appreciate your thoughts & opinions, they just didn't answer the question.. Though they did shed light on how you feel about the term Religion and how that differs from Dualistic Faiths. I re read our dialogue and realized I may have come across as if I didn't have time to think about your progressive thoughts and that's not the case.
                • Direction of Thought

                  Sun, January 18, 2009 - 12:24 AM
                  Dhuma,

                  Was what you wrote a general response to the initial question or to something someone had specifically written? If the latter in any way, what writer's words sparked your response?
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Direction of Thought

                    Sun, January 18, 2009 - 12:53 AM
                    Dhuma,

                    >>>"In yoga, we find a set of practices intending to bring non-physical benefits."

                    There are many many people who practice Yoga with the main intent being "physical benefits" and this is where "Religion" or "Spirit" doesn't really touch the people practicing "Yoga" and where I think it's appropriate to say "Yoga is not a Religion, it's a Science". And this isn't where Westerners are concerned solely, this is Urban Asia as well and I think any place where Yoga is 'marketed' or packaged. Possibly India.

                    Based on the opening sentence you provided, I very much think that Yoga is a "Religion".
                    A -
                    "Set of practices intending to bring non-physical benefits." This broad definition of Yoga is a very close parallel to my personal definition of Religion. The only thing I'd add is non-physical "spiritual" benefits or perhaps better stated.. "understandings" rather than the term - benefits.

                    But, I'm of the opinion that anything which has a SET of practices which intends Spiritual Growth... is a form of Religion.
  • Re: Is yoga a religion?

    Mon, January 19, 2009 - 12:10 PM
    If you study the ancient texts (Patanjali etc.) you will learn that Yoga is not a religion but tool with which to cultivate the soil of deeper transcendence through whatever path your beliefs lead you. In the words of Swami Pradjiananda "Yoga helps you be a better "whatever" you are. Be it a Christian, Muslum, Buddhist..."
    • Re: Is yoga a religion?

      Tue, January 20, 2009 - 2:29 AM
      You can take Yoga out of Spirit.... but you won't get Spirit out of Yoga.

      You can do Yoga religiously, and even do Religion as a Yoga.
      -------if you disagree, then do yoga as a kind of slow calesthenic ... it.ll still do you good.
    • Re: Is yoga a religion?

      Tue, January 20, 2009 - 8:21 PM
      Patanjali's Sutras, the 10 Commandments. . . etc.
      They're all "tools" that are meant to bring about Spiritual Transformation, which I believe to be different forms of Religion based on how I interpret the word Religion. (which I defined above)
      • K
        K
        offline 138
        Re Briggi:
        "Just know that the Yogic system has the answers to however deep you care to go. "

        Yes, Briggi, that is certainly true.
        And the reason is that the "answers" lie in whole person *practice* based on real systems that are proven to actually work. This is very very different than the many schools of "god-talk", some of which are mere personal fabrications.

        Thus the point is effective practice, and *not* dualistic belief.

        Best,
        KT



        • K
          K
          offline 138
          Re Katrina
          "the 10 Commandments. . . " as spiritual transformation.

          No, the 10 "commandments" are fealty one offers to a presumed creator god, who CREATED you and OWNS you. It is definitely not about transformation of consciousness. It is a legal contract between a tribe and their tribal god, known as Mosaic Law.

          Buddhist psychology and yoga IS all about spiritual transformation from a limited state of consciousness to a profound and liberated experience of pure awareness. It's been that way for 2500 years, all the way back to the Dhammapada taught by Guru Sakyamuni Buddha.
          Buddha taught us all to be to be individually aware and responsible, because there is karma and no creator god who owns us.

          That is the real transformation in consciousness. It is most important and most profound.

          KT
        • Even yoga has the god talk... as Lord Shiva is the diety beloved of yogis. However, the symbology and pictures of the guy with a fountain of water from his head and cobra and other symbols, is actually a way for people to look at that picture and see the relatyionship of various energies involved. Plus with his Shakti Parvati, with your understanding of their special relationship, you'll find an entire ensemble of keys to grasp the yogic knowledge.
          Just pictures and symbols which lead to understanding. But be careful as Kali Durga avatar of Shakti Parvati can love you to death.
  • Re: Is yoga a religion?

    Thu, February 19, 2009 - 3:53 AM
    I have really been enjoying the open friendly debate on this subject. (friendly... I hope).
    I have asked myself the same questions.
    But after following this I am wondering if some of the
    defering opions are not based off a strong distaste for the word "religion".
    Not that I can blame anyone for this. There does seem to be good cause for this.
    The word "religion" brings to mind (at least in the west) abuse and lies (to say the very lest on that subject.)
    I think we are all now driven to be reach beyond that.
    Therefore maybe we are not allowing yourself to be as opened mind on the subject as we think we are.
    For those that do not feel Yoga is religion.
    I ask the question
    "what stops you from wanting that".
    And for those that feel Yoga is a religion.
    I ask the question
    "why do you find it important for it to be a religion"
    I am interested to hear the thoughts as a way to better understand myself.
    I am hoping that some of you may have insight that I don't.
    And can give me a new way of looking inward.
    • Re: Is yoga a religion?

      Thu, February 19, 2009 - 7:45 AM
      Hi NeoHips : )


      Those are two really pertinent questions! I definitely agree that there is a stigma attached to the word "religion" which can make establishing anything one really enjoyes, which could be construed as a form of religion quite unpalatable and thus creating a need to deem whatever this thing is, anything *other* than religion. I personally don't think there is anything wrong with religion as long as your personal power / responsibility is not handed over to anyone or anything else as is often desired by religious groups. However I believe many people can be a part of an organized "dogmatic" structure while maintaining there own power. To me it's like self study vs a classroom setting. Some folks just learn better when there is a structure to follow and a set 'place' to be reminded of what matters. Things just get murky I suppose, when people begin believing ideals that they know in their hearts are false.

      Yoga doesn't have to be a religion though in the way I define Yoga and Religion, I think it is one. A Religion which encourages maintaining and growing personal / spiritual responsibility using a pretty well defined 'map'. The history of Yoga dates back so far and is extremely structured.. while being meant for Spiritual Growth.. If that's not what Religion is SUPPOSED to be.. I dunno what is?

      Thank you for asking the questions you asked...You're surely a productive person!~

      K
  • jen
    jen
    offline 0

    Re: Is yoga a religion?

    Fri, February 20, 2009 - 7:35 PM
    It's strange the way our minds like to compartmentalize things in order to make sense out of what we don't understand. Yoga is Yoga. Look up the Sanskrit definition---"union." It can "yoke" or "unite" you with something like religion or philosophy or whatever, but it itself is just about union. Anything can become a religion depending on your perception, but I don't believe its evolution was intended to create barriers, so it may not be best to say it's a religion. Isn't that why we call it a practice? In many religious ideologies there is a state to be attained (i.e heaven, enlightenment, a good person etc...), but with yoga, it's a practice. We work towards the union, but there's never anything to be gotten. There is no expectation, just intention. And we carry that intention as a practice.
    • Re: Is yoga a religion?

      Thu, March 26, 2009 - 7:56 AM
      Yoga=Union=State of being.

      Find it through a 'practice' using the Yamas, Niyamas & Sutras which make up this 'practice' with the goal of 'yolking' to be attained or more pertinent a word.. experienced. The Yamas, Niyamas & Sutras are a structure of practice. What is religion? A structure of practice. Structure being the operative word, imo.
      • Re: Is yoga a religion?

        Thu, March 26, 2009 - 10:43 PM
        Religion may count as having structure in practice, but not all structured practices are religions.
        So one thing can be another, but that other thing may just wind up not being what you started out with.
        • Re: Is yoga a religion?

          Fri, March 27, 2009 - 8:13 AM
          Structured set of Spiritual Practices, imo = Religion. Yamas, Niyamas & Sutras fit that bill.
          • K
            K
            offline 138
            Re Katrina:
            "KT,

            I'm not asking what your opinion of Religion is, I'm asking you what your definition of Religion is?"

            Acarya KT answers:
            Dharma. Specifically, Mahayana Dharma.

            Ahimsa paramo dharma.
            Sadhana sat guru.
            Islam pasanda-dharma.

            KT
            • K
              K
              offline 138

              We Buddhist gurus call it Mahayana. Means Universal Service. Also means no caste system. And a lot of other things, like Wisdom, Compassion and Power ( jnana, karuna, bala ).

              I posted an article on the Dalai Lama to eighteen tribes. His Holiness is one of the foremost yoga scholars and yoga teachers anywhere in the world, Buddhist or otherwise. So, you can pick up on this kind of practice via the teachings of the Dalai Lama. Repost follows.

              KT




              Keywords : HH The Dalai Lama, public Dalai Lama talks on world peace, Dalai Lama resources and current schedule, Nobel Peace Prize, universal human [ secular ] ethics, deep permaculture ethics.

              Summary: Provided here is (1) the current tour schedule for His Holiness the Dalai Lama [ for California Massachusetts, New York, Denmark, Iceland, Netherlands, India, Germany ], (2) an introduction to the life and work of HH the Dalai Lama, (3) book references and resources, and (4) curriculum vitae.

              HH the Dalai Lama:
              “Never give up.
              No matter what is going on.
              Never give up.
              Develop the heart.
              Be compassionate.
              Not just to your friends but to everyone.
              Work for peace in your heart and in the world.
              Work for peace and I say again:
              Never give up.
              No matter what is happening.
              No matter what is going on around you.
              Never give up.”

              Introduction:

              All Our Relations. Mitakuye Oyasin.

              His Holiness the Dalai Lama is one of the pivotal figures of our time. He is, more than anyone else that can be presently named, a world citizen and world teacher.

              His work in ethics, human rights,world peace, psychology and education, Buddhist teaching and East West relations, is second to none in our generation.

              In addition to a Nobel Peace Prize and the US Congressional Gold Medal, HH the Dalai Lama has received scores of honorary Doctorates ( in Laws, Philosophy, Human Letters, Divinity, Buddhist Philosophy, and so forth ) from major teaching centers worldwide. These include Columba, Brandeis, Universite de Paris, Benaras Hindu University, Hebrew University Jerusalem, U California San Francisco, and Rissho University Tokyo. He is an honorary citizen of Canada, of Roma Italia and so forth.

              He speaks worldwide and has published more than seventy two books.

              He is one of the most respected and revered persons on the the planet. On one visit to New York City some years back, forty thousand people turned out to see the Dalai Lama in the park.

              When the Dalai Lama gives the Highest Yoga Tantra initiation ( abhisekha ) of Kalacakra, the attendees sometimes number 100,000 or even 200,000. HH the Dalai Lama has given this initiation thirty times in different parts of the world. In addition to being a master of the Great Seal ( Mahamudra ) lineage of Buddhist tantra, he also gives initiations of the Great Perfection ( Mahasandhi, Atiyoga ), for example in London, in San Francisco, and Paris.

              You can see him this year at public talks in several areas, such as California, Massachusetts, New York, Europe, and India. A current schedule is provided below.

              I have seen HH the Dalai Lama give extremely worthwhile empowerments in Los Angeles and San Francisco, and represented him to the State Legislature of Hawaii in 1993, where he was invited to give a talk, and did. I have listened carefully to him conferencing with Hawaiian elders in public and was struck by the care and attention he gave in listening to others, and in asking questions.
              HH the Dalai Lama has written extremely important books on psychology and ethics, and I recommend these to the general public for self-help purposes, and also recommend some of his books to those committed to public service, especially in the area of multiculturalism, international human rights work, and the international Green Party movement.

              Because of the profound confluence of modern events, global economics, environmental issues and human cultures, the importance of broader and deeper human co-operation becomes more and more important.
              To obtain a broader and clearer understanding and principles for working with these most important issues, studying the secular works of the Dalai Lama is of great value and importance.

              Similarly, His Holiness is one of the few people who can and does speak for the diverse Buddhist populations and traditions worldwide. He has taught senior Japanese tantric Buddhist gurus of the Shingon lineage in their country, for instance. His Holiness is a paragon of the Buddhist renunciate order ( bhiksu-sangha ), of Buddhist scholarship, and of the Mahayana Great Way lineages, all of which are profoundly universal.

              This teacher is one of our very very best, be you a psychologist or academic, a diplomat, a tantric yogi, or a Buddhist practitioner. He has completely revolutionized Buddhist teaching, parts of popular modern culture, the understanding of international diplomacy and so forth in our lifetime.

              This is someone who actually embodies many of the key principles of the United Nations treaties on human rights, and also the key Buddhist Mahayana principles and teachings. It is important to note that the Mahayana Buddhist principles and the principles of the UN human rights work are essentially identical. There are universal principles that take us all forward, individually and together. In Buddhist Sanskrit these terms are, for instance pratitya-samutpada and karma. Now you know.

              The final point I wish to put forward to all is this: the Dalai Lama believes in all of us as people who *already* have sensitive human hearts that can be educated and developed, and he shows all of us a very real and practical way forward, a way based on self-understanding, listening and mutual respect, and patient co-operation.

              You could do worse, and please remember that due to impermanence, this elder teacher will not live forever. It is not clear how anyone anywhere can replace him.

              I see no real alternative to respect and co-operation for the common good, because we are one world. For this broader and deeper reason, and not specifically because he is a Buddhist guru, I support this teacher. He was not allowed by their government to attend a recent peace conference in South Africa, but he is available to you, and he is here for All Our Relations. May he live long and may his brilliant consciousness reach many many more.

              Thank you,
              KT, Rio Earth Summit Green Party organizer and so forth

              In partial fulfillment of my formal Mahayana teaching responsibilities.
              Sarva mangalam! Siddhi rastu!
              [ May it be auspicious! May there be accomplishment! ]

              John David Bartoe, Challenger 8 NASA space mission, July 1985:
              “As I looked down, I saw large river meandering slowly along for miles, passing from one country to another without stopping. I also saw huge forests, extending across several borders. And I watched the extent of one ocean touch the shores of several continents. Two words leaped to mind as I looked down on all of this: commonality and interdependence. We are one world.”


              Some of the following materials are taken from
              www.dalailama.com/
              Published books and multimedia materials are available at libraries throughout the world, and from Snow Lion Publications at
              www.snowlionpub.com

              From the official web site:

              “Universal Recognition

              “His Holiness the Dalai Lama is a man of peace. In 1989 he was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize for his non-violent struggle for the liberation of Tibet. He has consistently advocated policies of non-violence, even in the face of extreme aggression. He also became the first Nobel Laureate to be recognized for his concern for global environmental problems.

              “His Holiness has travelled to more than 62 countries spanning 6 continents. He has met with presidents, prime ministers and crowned rulers of major nations. He has held dialogues with the heads of different religions and many well-known scientists.

              “Since 1959 His Holiness has received over 84 awards, honorary doctorates, prizes, etc., in recognition of his message of peace, non-violence, inter-religious understanding, universal responsibility and compassion. His Holiness has also authored more than 72 books.

              “His Holiness describes himself as a simple Buddhist monk.”

              “Three Main Commitments in Life
              “Firstly, on the level of a human being, His Holiness first commitment is the promotion of human values such as compassion, forgiveness, tolerance, contentment and self-discipline. All human beings are the same. We all want happiness and do not want suffering. Even people who do not believe in religion recognize the importance of these human values in making their life happier. His Holiness refers to these human values as secular ethics. He remains committed to talk about the importance of these human values and share them with everyone he meets.

              “Secondly, on the level of a religious practitioner, His Holiness second commitment is the promotion of religious harmony and understanding among the world's major religious traditions. Despite philosophical differences, all major world religions have the same potential to create good human beings. It is therefore important for all religious traditions to respect one another and recognize the value of each other's respective traditions. As far as one truth, one religion is concerned, this is relevant on an individual level. However, for the community at large, several truths, several religions are necessary.
              “Thirdly, His Holiness is a Tibetan and carries the name of the Dalai Lama. Tibetans place their trust in him. Therefore, his third commitment is to the Tibetan issue. His Holiness has a responsibility to act as the free spokesperson of the Tibetans in their struggle for justice. As far as this third commitment is concerned, it will cease to exist once a mutually beneficial solution is reached between the Tibetans and Chinese.

              However, His Holiness will carry on with the first two commitments till his last breath.”

              Upcoming Schedule
              2009
              Lecture in Santa Barbara, CA, USA on April 24: His Holiness will give a lecture on The Nature of Mind organized by the University of Santa Barbara at the UCSB Events Center. Contact Website: www.religion.ucsb.edu/dalailama/
              Public Talk in Santa Barbara, CA, USA on April 24: His Holiness will give a public talk on Ethics for Our Time organized by the University of Santa Barbara at the UCSB Events Center. Contact Website: www.religion.ucsb.edu/dalailama/
              Public Talk in Berkeley, CA, USA on April 25: His Holiness will give a public talk on Peace Through Compassion organized by the University of California, Berkeley at the Greek Theater. Contact Website: www.berkeley.edu

              Public Talk in Boston, MA, USA on April 30: His Holiness will give a public talk to the Harvard University Community on Educating the Heart organized by Harvard University at the Memorial Church. Contact Website: www.harvard.edu
              Inauguration of The Dalai Lama Center on April 30: His Holiness will inaugurate The Dalai Lama Center at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) by giving a talk on Ethics and Enlightened Leadership. Contact Website: www.thecenter.mit.edu
              Panel Discussion in Boston, MA on May 1: His Holiness will participate in a panel discussion on Meditation and Psychotherapy – Cultivating Compassion and Wisdom organized by the Harvard Medical School Department of Continuing Education at Boston Park Plaza Hotel. Contact Website: www.cme.med.harvard.edu/index.asp
              Teaching in Boston, MA on May 2: His Holiness will give a teaching in the morning on What Is Buddhism & Commentary on The Four Noble Truths organized by the Tibetan Association of Boston at the Gillette Stadium, Foxboro. Contact Website: www.bostontibet.org
              Public Talk in Boston, MA on May 2: His Holiness will give a public talk in the afternoon on The Path to Peace and Inner Happiness organized by the Tibetan Association of Boston at the Gillette Stadium, Foxboro. Contact Website: www.bostontibet.org
              Public Talk in New York, NY on May 3: His Holiness will participate in a conversation with Mary Robinson, former President of Ireland and former UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, and moderated by Pico Iyer on Wisdom & Compassion for Challenging Times and organized by The Tibet Fund at The Town Hall. Contact Website: www.tibetfund.org

              Teaching in New York, NY on May 4: His Holiness will give a teaching on The Quintessence of Compassion organized by The Tibet House at The New Beacon Theater. Contact Website: www.tibethouse.org
              Public Talk in Albany, NY on May 6: His Holiness will give a public talk on Compassionate Ethics in Difficult Times organized by the World Ethical Foundations Consortium at the Albany Palace Theater. Contact Website: www.worldethicalfoundations.org

              Teaching in Copenhagen, Denmark from May 30 & 31: His Holiness will give a day and a half teaching on Nagarjuna's Commentary on Bodhicitta (jangchup semdrel) & Kamalashila's The Middling Stages of Meditation (gomrim barpa) at the Bella Center. Contact Website: www.dalailama.dk
              Public Talk in Copenhagen, Denmark on May 31: His Holiness will give a public talk on Peace Through Inner Peace at the Bella Center. Contact Website: www.dalailama.dk

              Public Talk in Reykjavik, Iceland on June 2: His Holiness will give a public talk on the topic on Values, Attitude and Happiness at the Laugardalsholl Sporting Arena. Contact Website: www.dalailama.is

              Teaching in Amsterdam, The Netherlands on June 4: His Holiness will give a teaching on Shantideva’s Chapter 6 on Patience from A Guide to the Bodhisattva’s Way of Life at the Rai Congress Center. Contact Website: www.dalailamanederland.nl
              Public Talk in Amsterdam, The Netherlands on June 4: His Holiness will give a public talk on The Power of Compassion At A Turbulent Time at the Rai Congress Center. Contact Website: www.dalailamanederland.nl

              Teaching in Kaza, H.P., India from July 10 to 12: His Holiness will give three-day teachings at the request of the Sakya Monastery in Kaza. On July 10 His Holiness will give a Buddhist teaching (topic yet to be decided). On July 11 and 12 His Holiness will confer the Avalokiteshvera Initiation (chenresig wangchen).

              Teaching in Frankfurt, Germany on July 30 & 31: His Holiness will give a day and a half teaching on Kamalashila's The Middling Stages of Meditation (gomrim barpa). On the morning of July 31 he will confer an Amitabha Empowerment (opakmey jenang). Contact Website: www.dalailama-frankfurt.de



              Nobel Prize Acceptance Speech
              [ University Aula, Oslo, 10 December 1989 ] :
              Your Majesty, Members of the Nobel Committee, Brothers and Sisters.
              I am very happy to be here with you today to receive the Nobel Prize for Peace. I feel honored, humbled and deeply moved that you should give this important prize to a simple monk from Tibet I am no one special. But I believe the prize is a recognition of the true value of altruism, love, compassion and non-violence which I try to practice, in accordance with the teachings of the Buddha and the great sages of India and Tibet
              I accept the prize with profound gratitude on behalf of the oppressed everywhere and for all those who struggle for freedom and work for world peace. I accept it as a tribute to the man who founded the modern tradition of non-violent action for change Mahatma Gandhi whose life taught and inspired me. And, of course, I accept it on behalf of the six million Tibetan people, my brave countrymen and women inside Tibet, who have suffered and continue to suffer so much. They confront a calculated and systematic strategy aimed at the destruction of their national and cultural identities. The prize reaffirms our conviction that with truth, courage and determination as our weapons, Tibet will be liberated.
              No matter what part of the world we come from, we are all basically the same human beings. We all seek happiness and try to avoid suffering. We have the same basic human needs and is concerns. All of us human beings want freedom and the right to determine our own destiny as individuals and as peoples. That is human nature. The great changes that are taking place everywhere in the world, from Eastern Europe to Africa are a clear indication of this.
              In China the popular movement for democracy was crushed by brutal force in June this year. But I do not believe the demonstrations were in vain, because the spirit of freedom was rekindled among the Chinese people and China cannot escape the impact of this spirit of freedom sweeping many parts of the world. The brave students and their supporters showed the Chinese leadership and the world the human face of that great nation.
              Last week a number of Tibetans were once again sentenced to prison terms of upto nineteen years at a mass show trial, possibly intended to frighten the population before today's event. Their only 'crime" was the expression of the widespread desire of Tibetans for the restoration of their beloved country's independence.
              The suffering of our people during the past forty years of occupation is well documented. Ours has been a long struggle. We know our cause is just Because violence can only breed more violence and suffering, our struggle must remain non-violent and free of hatred. We are trying to end the suffering of our people, not to inflict suffering upon others.
              It is with this in mind that I proposed negotiations between Tibet and China on numerous occasions. In 1987, I made specific proposals in a Five-Point plan for the restoration of peace and human rights in Tibet. This included the conversion of the entire Tibetan plateau into a Zone of Ahimsa, a sanctuary of peace and non-violence where human beings and nature can live in peace and harmony.
              last year, I elaborated on that plan in Strasbourg, at the European Parliament I believe the ideas I expressed on those occasions are both realistic. and reasonable although they have been criticised by some of my people as being too conciliatory. Unfortunately, China's leaders have not responded positively to the suggestions we have made, which included important concessions. If this continues we will be compelled to reconsider our position.
              Any relationship between Tibet and China will have to be based on the principle of equality, respect, trust and mutual benefit. It will also have to be based on the principle which the wise rulers of Tibet and of China laid down in a treaty as early as 823 AD, carved on the pillar which still stands today in front of the Jokhang, Tibet's holiest shrine, in Lhasa, that "Tibetans will live happily in the great land of Tibet, and the Chinese will live happily in the great land of China".
              As a Buddhist monk, my concern extends to all members of the human family and, indeed, to all sentient beings who suffer. I believe all suffering is caused by ignorance. People inflict pain on others in the selfish pursuit of their happiness or satisfaction. Yet true happiness comes from a sense of brotherhood and sisterhood. We need to cultivate a universal responsibility for one another and the planet we share. Although I have found my own Buddhist religion helpful in generating love and com¬passion, even for those we consider our enemies, I am convinced that everyone can develop a good heart and a sense of universal responsibility with or without religion.
              With the ever growing impact of science on our lives, religion and spirituality have a greater role to play reminding us of our humanity. There is no contradiction between the two. Each gives us valuable insights into the other. Both science and the teachings of the Buddha tell us of the fundamental unity of all things. This understanding is crucial if we are to take positive and decisive action on the pressing global concern with the environment.
              I believe all religions pursue the same goals, that of cultivating human goodness and bringing happiness to all human beings. Though the means might appear different the ends are the same.
              As we enter the final decade of this century I am optimistic that the ancient values that have sustained mankind are today reaffirming themselves to prepare us for a kinder, happier twenty-first century.
              I pray for all of us, oppressor and friend, that together we succeed in building a better world through human under-standing and love, and that in doing so we may reduce the pain and suffering of all sentient beings.
              Thank you.

              [ end posting ]



              • Thank you K, you are a well-meaning monk, well versed in American Dharma.

                Undoubtedly "his holiness" is a great man, and a wonderful public relations spokesperson for the Tibetian Lamaist branch of the Buddhist faith. By now he's learned what noises to make in order to get the ear and the sympathy of affluent western peoples. He certainly knows how to impress folks by saying just the right stuff.
                The people of China, however, seem to think that Lamaism is a throwback to ancient history, when through the feudalistic social form, people were kept in a state of ignorant, poverty-wracked sickening bondage through a combination of fear and superstition. I guess the Chinese, through their own history, should know all about getting out from under onerously exploitative socio-political systems.

                In answer to the question of wether Yoga is a religion?.... The answer is, yes it is, unless you prefer to practice it as a kind of P.E., ... slow calesthenics. In a democracy, you can take that to mean whatever it's worth to you, and no one will force you to believe otherwise.

                Pace, pace. a tutti bambini
                b!
                • K
                  K
                  offline 138

                  My further answer is found here.
                  allyoga.tribe.net/thread/b7...0d58c2121b

                  I give many book references on Primordial Awareness Yoga. It is not a religion at the innermost level. At the innermost level it transcends all religious dogmas by liberating primordial awareness within the individual. Thus this system *cannot* be classed with externally oriented forms of religious belief, which are dualistic. Inner Buddhist teaching has the function of breaking down all limiting belief systems, and of promoting awareness, freedom, and responsibility from within. That is the key difference.

                  This is the classical instruction of Atiyoga.

                  Sarva mangalam. Siddhi rastu.

                  KT
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    K
                    K
                    offline 138

                    Namaste. OM TAT SAT.

                    The following tour schedule and teaching article went out to many tribes, including tribe Teaching Yoga.
                    This is for quite a few current West Coast tantric transmissions and public events for psychic healing, in the lineage of Dzogchen Primordial Awareness Yoga.

                    losangeles.tribe.net/listing...a065b069

                    Earlier this week I spent a day with this teacher, who inherits a complete tantric lineage from his father. He is great. The text was great, the transmission was great, the commentary was great. And I have high standards: three of my sixty plus gurus are teachers TO His Holiness the Dalai Lama. So I "know from tantra".

                    To some extent, there is overlap and also some sharing of themes between Buddhist tantra and Shaivite dharma, as well as Ayurveda of course. But the main point is NONDUAL theory and practice.

                    The nature of Awareness is Simple, Whole, and Pure, Vast and All Encompassing. You don't get it from anywhere else, or anybody else.

                    I am very very glad this year to support in particular the needs of yoga practitioners in the Los Angeles area. That is another bridge that has been built. Of course, it is the guru who gives transmissions, and not me, who does all the work.

                    Nevertheless, this is *real* and effective support of the yoga and pagan and Buddhist communities all up and down the West Coast. And I have further developed the topic of nondual awareness yoga, which is mainly taught in the tantric Buddhist lineages.

                    I put out word on Shiva Rea's Global Mantra Mala to about fifty five tribes. I wonder: did her group think any about Buddhist mantras for honoring the UN Founding via Global Mantra Mantra? The Mahayana Buddhist ethic and the UN ethic are very closely aligned. This is very clearly apparent in the work of HH the Dalai Lama, one of the very great teachers of our time.

                    I'm quite certain that *most* of the mantra recitation performed in the US is Buddhist. And some fair amount of pranayama too.

                    So clearly, yoga as a practice transcends the doctrines and dogmas of any one lineage or cultural format.

                    Best,
                    KT
                    • K
                      K
                      offline 138


                      The Elephant Headed God : Ganesh / Ganapati in pre Vedic India, Vedic India, and Buddhist tantra.

                      From tribe Buddhism:
                      zenbuddhism.tribe.net/thread/...4744c6af

                      Re Qatana:
                      "Um, Ganesh is a HINDU deity, far pre-dating the Buddha, and has absolutely nothing to do with Buddhist philosphy or practices. Ganapati is a HINDU puja."

                      Qatana, you are quite wrong.

                      I have a Hindu empowerment of the Thousand Names of Ganapati / Ganesh. I also have two empowerments of Ganapati in the Indo-Tibetan tradition of the Sakya School, which is one of the major schools of Buddhist tantra.

                      The "Buddhist Ganapati" is significant in both the Sakya and Gelugpa schools of "Tibetan Buddhism". It is one of several significant Hindu-derived or Hindu-like deity yogas in Buddhist tantra, which on a practical functioning level is largely polytheistic.

                      Ganapati is a major pagan practice, and an important kundalini yoga practice. Therefore we should get our facts straight, yes?

                      You can see a short ( restricted to initiates ) Ganapati practice available for sale on the Gelugpa web site
                      www.fpmt.org

                      The Buddhist Ganapati is also known in classical Indo-Chinese-Japanese tantra of the Shingon school. This means Buddhist Ganapati travelled to Japan SEPARATELY from the central Asian Nepalese Tibetan connection. Thus it is guaranteed to have been practiced by Buddhists in ancient India before the development of "Tibetan Buddhism", and independently of "Tibetan Buddhism".

                      Similarly, I have a Saraswati ( Hindu Goddess of Learning ) empowerment in the Sakya tradition. But the Buddhist tantric Saraswati is distinctly Buddhist in terms of the practice, and does not conform to the common Hindu mode of practice.

                      For example, the Hindu Saraswati has the basis seed syllable AYIM. The Buddhist Saraswati has the syllable HRI. So they look and function very similarly, but they are definitely not identical.

                      Note also the Hindu Ganapati has the basis seed syllable GAM. The Buddhist Ganapati has the syllable GAH. So they look and function very similarly as well. But all Buddhist tantric practices, such as Buddhist Saraswati and Buddhist Ganapati, are given always and only in the context of Buddhist Mahayana refuge vows.

                      It is incorrect to say that Ganapati was originally a Vedic Hindu deity. Ganapati far precedes the rise of Vedic culture in ancient India. Ganapati is a pre-Vedic indigenous archetype and deity, later incorporated into Vedic practice, like many diverse local village forms of "the Great Goddess".

                      Thus, Ganapati is pre-Hindu, Hindu, and Buddhist all at the same time.

                      Tantric Buddhist Ganapati in the Sakya School is, according to the rite of initiation, a sub-manifestation of Amitabha Buddha as Avalokitesvara ( "Chenresig" ). He is Twelve Armed and crowned by Amitabha Buddha. This may not be true of the Japanese Shingon school of tantra.

                      Current Hindu scholarship admits that the tantric Buddhists claim Twelve Armed Red Ganapati - the form I have received repeatedly from the Sakya school - may well be Buddhist in origin. The Ganapati Hrdaya Mantra follows a more Buddhist structure and clearly relies on the seed syllable GAH, rather than the seed syllable GAM characteristic of Hindu Ganapati practice. The Hindu scholars admit that Buddhists claim the Ganapati Hrdaya mantra as being Buddhist in origin, not Hindu in origin. They do not necessarily accept the claim, but it is quite reasonable.

                      Several Buddhist deities have become part of the Hindu pantheon, including Avalokitesvara and the Goddess Vasudhara. This is accepted in modern independent university scholarship.

                      Sometimes the Hindu Ganapati is seen as opposing Buddhist teaching and practice. There is a form of Six Armed Mahakala, a primary Buddhist protector deity, which tramples on a two armed Hindu Ganesh. I have that empowerment twice from the great Kagyu master Kalu Rinbochay.

                      Thus, Ganapati is found in three of the major schools of Tibetan Buddhism, the Kagyu, the Gelugpa, and the Sakya, as well as in the independently derived Japanese Buddhist school of Shingon. Buddhist Red Twelve Armed Ganapati is also known in Nepal. Thus the Buddhist lineages of Ganapati spread across all of northern Asia.

                      Buddhist Twelve Armed Red Ganapati has been repeatedly given in San Francisco ( 2x ), Vancouver BC ( 3x ), and in Seattle Washington ( 3x ), foe eight times total. I am directly connected with all three of the relevant local fellowships, which are all Sakya / Tibetan lineage.

                      I have written on Buddhist and Hindu Ganapati, here and elsewhere, to demonstrate one of the key links between Hindu tantra and Buddhist tantra. This is straightforward, but obviously has been questioned and/ or attacked by some ignorant people, some very ignorant and even aggressive people.

                      There are quite a few people here and there who have either the Buddhist or Hindu transmission of Ganapati. Almost no one except myself has both.

                      I understand your confusion on this point. The difference is that I am a published Buddhist liturgical scholar and tantric Buddhist guru. You have been answered.

                      There are quite a few "yoga teachers" on tribe.net, but few know or use Ganapati practice. Ganapati is key to the Hindu systems of practice, and it is typical for any Hindu rite to begin with a Ganapati practice.

                      The point here is that Buddhists also have a distinct and well-developed Ganapati transmission and practice. It is an effective practice, I have a connection with Ganapati, through my original Buddhist Sakya transmission, not through the later Hindu Thousand Names of Ganapati ( received from Vedacarya Ashley-Farrand ).

                      Buddhists and Hindus share a tremendous amount of spiritual culture, not just Ganapati and Saraswati and Tara and so forth. This is in direct contrast to the complete gap between Hindu-Buddhist culture and monotheistic culture, Islam in particular. That is the real point.

                      All the Hindu and Buddhist practices of Tara are completely unacceptable in Islamic totalitarian culture. That means all of Tibetan culture, all tantric culture, and all Goddess practice is illegal under the arbitrary law known as Islamic Sharia.

                      In contrast to this, I support a broad range of non Buddhist as well as Buddhist practices, including some Hindu, some Taoist, some Shinto, some native American, and some shamanic practices. I have strong connections with all of these.

                      I am an individually licensed tantric Buddhist guru and a Pipe Carrier of the Lakota Sioux. I practice for All Our Relations. I know my stuff, and I'm here to help people make valid and worthwhi;e connections, both outer and inner. That's my job.

                      Some practices, like Ganapati and Tara Devi, and also Ayurveda, are demonstrably major bridges between Buddhist and Hindu lineages of classical tantric and yogic culture. Thus, I emphasize these to show the commonality in a world where "religion" is too often employed to divide and disempower people, to oppress and hurt, and to destroy classical culture, and spiritual culture in particular.

                      As Sting has pointed out:
                      There is no religon in the path of hatred.

                      Now you know. And since I make detailed responses to challenges to these my teaching posts, this communication is clearly not spam. Instead, it is help and an effective means of building bridges among different tribes and cultures.

                      For more details on Ganapati practice, both Hindu and Buddhist, see
                      ganesh.tribe.net/thread/1b...5d29bb211e

                      Sarva mangalam! Siddhi rastu!

                      KT




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