I am currently immersed in a week-long advanced yoga intensive.
The days are inspiring and amazing but my body is quite sore!
Any suggestions (other than hot baths) for managing sore muscles and supporting my body thru this week?
Cheers!
The days are inspiring and amazing but my body is quite sore!
Any suggestions (other than hot baths) for managing sore muscles and supporting my body thru this week?
Cheers!
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Canada
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Re: How do you nurture your sore body?
Wed, February 6, 2008 - 7:37 AMMy body complained a lot during a week long intensive over the summer. Lots of water, restorative poses, and healthy meals with plenty of vegetables helped. I also used two tennis balls in a sock to help massage my back and legs -- just lay on it a roll around a little to get the sore spots.
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Re: How do you nurture your sore body?
Wed, February 6, 2008 - 10:02 PMNO hot baths, they feel great but they're soooo counter productive. Ice baths... they suck, but they help a ton. You don't need actual ice, just pour the water from the faucet as cold as it gets and hop in for 5 minutes... no longer than that though. Some people swear alternating from hot to cold works wonders, primarily triathletes who experience a lot of muscle breakdown and repair..however, I haven't been that brave yet. Not even when I was training could I bring myself to do that. The ice bath was enough.
Does feel good after you get out. The cold shrinks your blood vessels and squeezes all the lactic acid build up out of your muscles (the primary reason for being sore is the lactic acid build up and poor post work out nutrition). You've got to drink a fair amount of water right before and after you do this so the acid gets flushed. Also... protein in whatever form you can get it to rebuild the muscles.
Have fun @ your intensive!!
Katrina -
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Re: How do you nurture your sore body?
Sat, February 9, 2008 - 10:05 AMActually the variation between hot/cold therapy has been used for decades (probably centuries) by different cultures, such as in Russia, for increasing circulation. Plus it feels really good. I've heard anecdotally to finish with the cold.
Hot baths in my opinion are just fine. In fact, heat is a way that some physical therapists use to relieve muscle knots (using an ultrasound device to create heat deep within the muscle tissue). Epsom salts are also helpful, and inexpensive. Heat will cause some swelling, just like cold reduces swelling, but it's mainly joint inflammation issues that you need to be careful about.
Katrina, I've never heard of the correlation between vasoconstriction and the elimination of lactic acid. Where did you hear/read about that?
One of the best things to help sore muscles, believe it or not, is to move. If you can try moving, without lots of resistance, that's one of the best ways to help circulation. I find swimming very good for this. And of course, hydrate.
But I'm always a fan of getting a massage myself. -
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Re: How do you nurture your sore body?
Sat, February 9, 2008 - 12:45 PMOne more note, lactic acid causing delayed onset muscle soreness has been questioned by researchers, which is pretty controversial and fascinating stuff:
www.nytimes.com/2006/05/16.../16run.html -
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Re: How do you nurture your sore body?
Sat, February 9, 2008 - 1:10 PMRegardless of the reasons why muscles are sore or whether or not it's lactic acid vs the next thing which is making them sore, cold baths cut the recovery time faster than warm. If you're looking for a panacea for mildly sore muscles and joints, warm is great.. but not for intense work on a day to day basis, which is what the poster seems to be experiencing. This is what I know to work the best having actually experienced both polarities and muscle breakdown on a day to day basis.
If Lactic Acid is not what's causing muscle soreness, it still needs to be flushed out because it's toxic and you definitely don't want it hanging around in your body whether it's what's making you sore or not. Cold baths do this while warm ones do not.
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Re: How do you nurture your sore body?
Sat, February 9, 2008 - 1:40 PMI actually think the hot/cold combination is best way to go, and for me personally, deep heat, such as that my physical therapist has used via ultrasound, was the best way to break up knotted tissue and find relief for myself. But I do believe that cold is therapeutic as well. I'll check out those notes on the rugby team, that's interesting.
The reason I advocate non-weight bearing movement is that one of the theories of the delayed muscle soreness is microtears in your muscle fibers, which happens when your muscles get overloaded. The fibers have microtears that then allow the muscles to rebuild and become stronger. This process leads to the atrophy of your muscles as well. Blood supply is what carries nutrients to these tissues so assisting with circulation helps the repair.
In fact, doctors now say the absolute worst thing you can do when you have a back spasm is to lie in bed.
The lactic acid research is changing. The researcher who claims is does not cause muscle soreness says it leaves your body within an hour of exercise. It's not toxic to your body in the way that mercury or too much iron can be because your body produces lactic acid as a fuel source and will fatigue when it reaches the threshold of the amount of lactic acid your body can sustain. -
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Re: How do you nurture your sore body?
Sat, February 9, 2008 - 4:48 PMLactic Acid causes free radicals (Dr. Susan Silberstein PhD, Center for Advancement in Cancer Education) in the system. 2 things need to happen;
1- the lactic acid needs to be flushed
2- the free radicals which the lactic acid created need to be neutralized via anti oxidant rich foods
I concur that soreness is due to micro tears in the muscle fibers. The body greatly increases blood flow to those areas on it's own without heat. Heat can aggravate the soreness. Like I mentioned earlier, hot / cold is great for the body, if a person has enough time on their hands to alternate between the two. If not, cold has always been better to me than warm. The cold assists with circulation by forcing all of the toxin and blood out of the muscle and flushing it with new fluid.
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Re: How do you nurture your sore body?
Thu, February 14, 2008 - 6:27 AMKatrina - It seems a bit odd that someone who's a doctor specializing in cancer would attribute cancer causing properties to lactic acid - though there's no evidence that free radicals cause cancer from what I've read - mainly because very intense exercise has been shown to be very good protection against cancer.
I'd agree that it seems obvious that the micro tears in muscle that are caused by muscle building exercise (since this tearing and repair is how we build muscle) would be the cause of soreness after doing muscle building exercise. Though, sometimes what seems obvious or common sense isn't actually the true explanation! :-) -
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Re: How do you nurture your sore body?
Thu, February 14, 2008 - 9:44 AMHi Fifi,
Reading through the entire thread carefully, you'll see I agree with micro muscle tears being a culprit. I never disageed with that. I learned more about current research through Kimberlee. But the initial debate was about heat vs cold, and I stand my ground there, not about Lactic Acid.
"Katrina - It seems a bit odd that someone who's a doctor specializing in cancer would attribute cancer causing properties to lactic acid - though there's no evidence that free radicals cause cancer from what I've read -"
For you to say there is "no" evidence that Lactic Acid is related to Cancer, is a mighty bold statement that I disagree with. Everything I have read goes back to known Carcinogens, Free Radicals and Low pH conditions developing Cancer. Also, when I consider all of the research out that neither you OR I have heard about or read, that statement is a misnomer, especially seeing as neither of us are Cancer Specialists. When I consider a woman who has run a 501c3 organazation for the past 30 years, to help people fight their Cancer, my considerations for her opinion are heightened considerably. I read through a book of ill patients, many terminally ill, that she helped save through environment, diet & sheer understanding of their disease and where it comes from. Over the past thirty years, she's helped over 30,000 people. That's a few more than I : )
Cancer doesn't come from one spot, Cancer Specialists should be talking about anything that helps Cancer to grow and thrive... Nothing about that seems a bit off odd me. Scientifically proven, where does Cancer thrive and grow the best? - in high pH environments. What conditions does Lactic Acid create, high pH conditions. We become more Acidic when we work out, we create bi product like anything ese which uses, converts and expels energy. Kimberlee mentioned that this should be handled by the body, well most of it is but not all. Even in healthy bodies. Look at Lance!
This all simply stems back to my belief that flushing the body with cold instead of warm is most beneficial after a tough workout. (the flushing effect which warm doesn't possess) Wasn't really about Cancer, however I gave the information for credibility and since you requested it. Hope this helps with any quandaries you had about the info I posted.
And I'll mention again that I agree with micro tears being a culprit but there are others as well.
Katrina -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: How do you nurture your sore body?
Thu, February 14, 2008 - 10:13 AMKatrina - "Reading through the entire thread carefully, you'll see I agree with micro muscle tears being a culprit. I never disageed with that."
I was agreeing with you in the first place actually! No conflict to be had here from my side and I was actually affirming what you said, so no need to make comments about "reading carefully" :-) I was merely pointing out that what seems obvious or common sense isn't always true. That stands for my assumptions as much as anyone else's.
And actually I said "there was no evidence that free radicals cause cancer from what I've read". I also said it seemed odd *to me* that someone would equate the results of intense physical activity with causing cancer since more and more studies are coming out saying that exercise not only prevents cancer but also helps keep it in remission. While cancer is still not entirely understood, the latest research seems to indicate that it's a malfunctioning of mitochondria which results in them a distorted energy production which includes feeding off glucose for energy - their apoptosis (cell death) mechanism doesn't work so the cells keep growing when and where they shouldn't. I'm not saying that lactic acids may not play a part - I'm not an oncologist or cancer researcher and there are all kinds of theories being studied at the moment - I'm just saying making a leap from the role that lactic acid *may* play on a mitochondrial level to lactic acid created during exercise may be a rather big leap. Particularly considering that intense exercise is proving to be a very good way to prevent cancer and keep it in remission.
I don't understand what you mean when you say "cancer doesn't come from one spot". Cancer is a biological mitochondrial malfunction that seems to have multiple risk factors and causes, is that what you mean when you say it doesn't come from one spot? You are, of course, free to hold whatever beliefs you may have and follow whatever course of treatment you choose if you have cancer. I'm happy to discuss cancer and exercise with you in a non-inflammatory (pun intended) way based on facts but I don't see the point in bickering over different beliefs. Particularly if they're based in emotions or faith (and when I say this I'm not trying to denigrate your or the woman who runs the organization you mention, you just seem rather passionate about this subject). I respect your right to believe and think differently than me but I'm more interested in facts (and acknowledging that a theory is a theory not a fact) when it comes to biology and medicine. The knowledge about cancer is constantly changing, I'm not attached to being "right" I'm just interested in how our bodies work :-) -
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Re: How do you nurture your sore body?
Thu, February 14, 2008 - 1:54 PMHi Fifi,
Not always easy to interpret how someone is saying something and when I read the beginning of what you wrote, it was open to interpretation, I'm happy that we are actually on the same page! : )
From what I've read there is evidence that free radicals cause cell mutation - which is one theory on how Cancer forms and begins to grow.
Fifi -"I also said it seemed odd *to me* that someone would equate the results of intense physical activity with causing cancer since more and more studies are coming out saying that exercise not only prevents cancer but also helps keep it in remission."
This is what I said concerning Susan -
"Lactic Acid causes free radicals (Dr. Susan Silberstein PhD, Center for Advancement in Cancer Education) in the system. 2 things need to happen;
1- the lactic acid needs to be flushed
2- the free radicals which the lactic acid created need to be neutralized via anti oxidant rich foods"
Never said that Dr Susan Silberstein said anything else other than what was para phrased. The only thing I could change about what I said is that Lactic Acid "creates" instead of causes. Susan never took the leap, and I didn't say she did either, that Excersize causes or can cause Cancer. This is one of a great many articles related to free radicals and how they effect the body and Cancer - Could you please post where you read that Free Radicals perhaps have nothing to do with Cancer formation or growth because I'm interested to understand that as it would change how I view Cancer and what I've learned about it thus far.
www.nutraceutical.com/educate...icle.cfm
I'm also interested to know where you read that "intense" physical excersize is proven to be a very good way to prevent cancer and keep it in remission? I'd like to read that article so I understand their basis. I agree that physical excersize is extremely beneficial to the body, but I also think that like anything else, there's a balance. I drink a cup of green tea every time I leave the gym. It helps my body to track down free radicals that I've created through excersize and neutralize them.
Here's some more information on the effects of excersize and free radicals, definitely worth looking at!
www.rice.edu/~jenky/sports/antiox.html
For a person who involves theirself in intense pjysical activity, this is probably very important to understand or at the very least, become aware of, regardless if you accept it or not.
"I don't understand what you mean when you say "cancer doesn't come from one spot"."
Cancer does not form because of a single culprit, i.e. Cigarettes, Excersize, Diet, Emotions... That's what I mean. There's many ways up that particular mountain, the biological response may be similar in different types of Cancer. I'm trying to explain that what CAUSES that biological response comes from many places.
What causes the malfunctioning of Mitochondria and is that your understanding of what biological effect takes place in the formation of every type of Cancer?
"I'm happy to discuss cancer and exercise with you in a non-inflammatory (pun intended) way based on facts but I don't see the point in bickering over different beliefs" I haven't thought, as of yet, that we were??? And you mentioned that my beliefs are (or may be??) more theory based and yours are more fact based, least that's what I gathered you meant, and from where I sit, what I'm saying has been backed up scientifically, especially the info about free radicals causing cellular break down. So I believe that we are both providing what we know to be scientific information - which, you are 100% on the mark here, is always changing.
I can assure you that nothing I have mentioned here is based in "Faith" or "Emotion".
Wow, we're covering a lot of ground in this thread!
K -
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Re: How do you nurture your sore body?
Thu, February 14, 2008 - 4:13 PMHi Katrina
yes, it is easy to misinterpret things online without tone or physical indicators. I guess trying to communicate well online is its own form of yoga! :-)
Yes, free radicals is one theory about how cancer forms and grows but there's still no definitive evidence this is so (or anything else is), and there's a lot of promotion of this idea by companies that make vitamins, juicers and the like which misrepresents the actual science. There's a good chance free radicals *do* contribute to cell mutations but there's also some good evidence for other mechanisms are at work. We now know a lot more about cancer than we used to but it's good to remember that we're still trying to understand cancer. It's pretty much confirmed that there's an inherited genetic aspect at play, and that certain toxic substances will cause cancer (radium, for instance, plenty of chemicals).
No offense but Dr. Silberstein clearly isn't a medical doctor because the initials after her name would be MD not PhD. She may indeed offer some interesting ideas but she's not an oncologist, biologist or medical researcher. Her specialty seems to be psychology, which doesn't require or include training in biology. I also noticed that her organization - www.beatcancer.org - has no doctors on the board but does have someone from Ultimate Health Group and Expect Success Marketing (she does have an RN on the board). I did a search on PubMed and her name didn't come up on any studies.
Here's an easily digestible article that collects and talks about the studies that have been done over the past couple of years regarding anti-oxidant vitamins and cancer. This is based upon more recent research than the studies quoted in the Rice.edu page (though there are studies from around 1994-5 just after this article that indicate taking vitamin supplements may make the risk of getting cancer higher).
well.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/0...tients/
Some interesting research out of the University of Alberta, though since these experiments are done on cells in petri dishes it's a long way to being proven or disproven.
www.expressnews.ualberta.ca/article.cfm
It's important to understand that what happens in mitochondria - whether lactic acid from glucose on the cellular level has anything to do with lactic acid from exercise - isn't quite the same thing as how we think about these things when we're thinking about our whole organism. After all, breathing creates free radicals. There's no question that being alive will definitely eventually lead to death! ;-)
Nutraceutical.com obviously has a bias and vested interest since they're a commercial company that sells vitamins and products.
Clearly eating well and exercising - keeping our bodies working as nature intended - contributes to good health on many levels. No one would dispute that and I'm sure that's something we can agree upon :-) We may have to leave it at that and agree to disagree, which I'm happy to do in a respectful manner :-) -
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Re: How do you nurture your sore body?
Thu, February 14, 2008 - 5:35 PMHi Fifi,
Susan is not a Psychologist. The Not for Profit, 501c3 organization she has run for 30 years is called "The Center for Advancement in Cancer Education". She has an ND on staff from Bastyr, one of the 3 best schools for Natural Medicine in the country. If you're familiar with the curriculum, the same is learned about the body as an MD, what's different is the protocol for treatment. Yes, she does have a doctor on staff. She speaks alongside Oncologists at Medical Conferences and also works directly with them in Philadelphia. As a matter of fact, they send her their patients often, (feel the need to illustrate that they don't send them to her for Psychological Support but rather for further information about Cancer that can help the patient make a more educated decision about their treatment options...Susan deals with the person on a whole level, a word you mentioned when talking about Lactic Acid and the different roles it has from the biological level to the whole) She spends considerable amounts of time with mainstream and alternative doctors. 30 years of her life and 30,000 people later, she's still around... I trust that.
Fifi, I don't understand where the article you posted about Vitamins & Cancer comes into out conversation? I haven't said anything about vitamins?
Taken from the second article you posted
"Scientists and doctors have used DCA for decades to treat children with inborn errors of metabolism due to mitochondrial diseases. Mitochondria, the energy producing units in cells, have been connected with cancer since the 1930s, when researchers first noticed that these organelles dysfunction when cancer is present."
*** Note that mitochondria dysfunctions when Cancer is present, indicating the Cancer was there before the Mitochindria malfunctioned. Many functions go awry when Cancer is present. This article says nothing of Mitochindrion being the biological reaction which starts cell's abnormal growth. What were you illustrating with this article? I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm trying to follow your line of thought and reasoning in context to the conversation we're currently having.
The questions I asked you in my last post remain unanswered. I think we're both past sugar coating - I don't mean to be crass. Just understanding you're world and reasoning as you're understanding mine. (and I've learned through this process of speaking with Kimberlee and yourself...which to me is AWESOME!)
Katrina -
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Re: How do you nurture your sore body?
Thu, February 14, 2008 - 6:38 PMKatrina - The article about vitamins is relevant because you were talking about oxidative stress and lactic acid as being causes of cancer. The idea that "nutriceuticals" (which is everything from vitamins to other supplements that are meant to act as antioxidants) and a company that sells them are a more reliable source than clinical trials just doesn't make sense. You're the one who linked to this company to support your beliefs and understanding *shrug*
What is Susan's PhD in then? She's clearly not a medical doctor (otherwise she'd have MD as well as PhD after her name). beatcancer.com is the website address for her organization. She looks like she may be trained as a psychologist, which would make sense. While her company may be a non-profit, there are clearly many ways for her to personally profit such as speaking engagements and so on. There are also many items for sale, classes that are $70 a pop, and so on. Sorry but that doesn't seem like the way a true non-profit educational organization works from my experience.
An ND is not a MD. There's some overlap in what's studied but there's a big difference in many aspects and certainly in theories of how the body works. MDs are taught facts and theories that are tested through clinical trials, this is not necessary for the curriculum NDs are taught. Otherwise NDs would be recognized by the College of Physicians. Just because someone has lectured at a two medical schools doesn't mean that the school actually supports their theories (interestingly a Dr. Stephen Silberstein turns up when you do a search at both but Susan doesn't). And just because Susan's organization aims to "reach out and educate" doctors doesn't mean that they're actually going to her lectures. I found her site surprisingly lacking in any convincing connection actually.
Cancer is a group of diseases in which cells are aggressive (grow and divide without respect to normal limits), invasive (invade and destroy adjacent tissues), and sometimes metastatic (spread to other locations in the body). The reason cells grow is that normal apoptosis is disrupted - at this point there are many theories but no definitive evidence as to why. There's very convincing evidence that some substances do cause cancer and that there's a genetic component.
I thought I'd not only answered your questions that could be answered but also brought up some related issues. Since you feel I haven't, please state and number your questions clearly (since I seem to be confused!) and I'll do my best to answer them. Like I said, cancer is a big subject with no definitive answers at this point so there may just be no answer to be had.
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Re: How do you nurture your sore body?
Thu, February 14, 2008 - 7:16 PMWow, it's interesting so see where these threads go.
In 2006, when George Brooks of the University of Berkeley published his findings that lactic acid did not cause muscle soreness, many in the exercise science world screamed heresy, now among biologists and exercise scientists it's pretty widely accepted his theory is correct. But, it takes a while for what the scientific community accepts to trickle out to more lay people, like yoga teachers (especially when the 4 metabolic pathways are not standard curricula in most teacher training programs).
Plus, researchers will often disagree with other researchers, in part to keep their grant funding, but there are many who are interested in the advancement of science. It's the same way with lots of these ideas, such as global climate change. Look at how long that took to get into public discourse and it's still considered a "myth" by too many people in my opinion.
This is why it's critical for teachers to stay current and to educate themselves beyond their teacher trainings.
It's just refreshing to see yoga teachers giving a hoot about exercise science. I've taken classes from some teachers, and even read from some very well paid yoga stars, that muscle soreness and physical limitations are just the signs of a weak mind. It's nice to know teachers are balancing the eastern notion that you can do anything you put your mind to with the western notion that if you've had a hip replacement there's only a certain range of motion limited by how the doctors constructed the plate in your hip.
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Re: How do you nurture your sore body?
Thu, February 14, 2008 - 9:08 PMFifi,
"Katrina - The article about vitamins is relevant because you were talking about oxidative stress and lactic acid as being causes of cancer. The idea that "nutriceuticals" (which is everything from vitamins to other supplements that are meant to act as antioxidants) and a company that sells them are a more reliable source than clinical trials just doesn't make sense. You're the one who linked to this company to support your beliefs and understanding *shrug*"
Perhaps in your haste, you neglected to read the entire article I posted, which at the bottom states:
"Information provided in the Education section is provided by Woodland Publishing, Inc. and/or other independent third parties that are unaffiliated with Nutraceutical Corporation, and is intended to provide an electronic reference library about nutrition and health."
Third party being key there - The vitamin company didn't write that page nor did they try and sell anything or peddle anything on that page - for a more credible link - see the link below which has similar information on it. Why did you feel the need to try and discredit the page without first seeing if there was reputable (in your eyes) information that mentions the same things in the article...which I think was very unbias information.
1. That being said again, how do Vitamins come into play or are you creating more information that detracts our focus from the conversation at hand? I did not mention nor advocate Vitamins as a way to neutralize Free Radicals.
Here's a link about Cancer and Anti Oxidants (which are proven to hunt down and kill free radicals), one I hope you deem more worthy as it is clinical as requested. I can post more links that provide similar information as the article I posted previously.
www.cancer.gov/cancertopi...-prevention
Fifi, *shrug* what exactly is your experience with not for profit Cancer organizations? How do they stay afloat beyond the little they recieve from government and local supporters? And how are the people running them supposed to pay their mortgage? Well, they must sell something and rely on donations in order to maintain their ability to help others. Casting dispersions upon the efforts of this organization does not enhance, mitigate or in any way substantiate the points you are trying make. Perhaps you should speak with her yourself before passing judgement about an organization which you know very little about.
Here are the people who do support her - Notice Atlantic Hematology Oncology Group, American Bio Sciences, Delaware County Medical Society Public Health Fund amongst the others below.
OUR PARTNERS IN PREVENTION
A-E Group, Inc.
Acts of Generosity
Amaranth Florist
American BioSciences
Atlantic Hematology Oncology Group
Ayala's Herbal Water
Barry Slosberg Auctioneers
Beat the Beast Foundation
Brinker Simpson & Company, CPAs
CancerBeeters.org
Caroline J. Sanders Trust
Champion Juicer
Change a Life Foundation
Christina Cooks Public Television
City of Philadelphia Fun, Fit & Free Program
Connelly Foundation
Dakota Flax Gold
Delaware County Medical Society Public Health Fund
Dolfinger-McMahon Foundation
Donald P. Jones Foundation
Duff Accounting Solutions
Edward Smiley Charity Foundation
Exxon Mobil Foundation
Fighter for Life
Fourjay Foundation
Fox Rothschild
Global Woman Magazine
The Haverford Trust
IBM On Demand Community
Ira & Myrna Brind Foundation
Juice Plus+®
Kaplan Family Foundation
The KP Fund
LaSalle University Funding Board
Longships Foundation / EFCA Foundation
Montgomery County Foundation
National Philanthropic Trust Breast Cancer Fund
Natural Source International
Peak Potentials Love Fund
Prudential Foundation
Reed Hamilton Fund of The Philadelphia Foundation
Roe Walker/Robert E. Pogue Charitable Trust
Rosenlund Family Foundation
St. Edmond's Bank
The St. Martha Foundation
Standard Process of Pennsylvania
Susan G. Komen Breast Cancer Foundation
Toplin & Associates
Turk Family Foundation
Ultimate Health Group
United Way
Verizon Foundation
Wachovia Foundation
Whole Foods Markets (Philadelphia area)
William Goldman Foundation
Wilson and Grace Pollock Foundation
YTB Travel Network -- Cacetravel.com
"MDs are taught facts and theories that are tested through clinical trials, this is not necessary for the curriculum NDs are taught"
Perhaps you sould make yourself more aware of how ND's are taught at Bastyr, something I don't feel the need to go into with you as you can research that yourself.
An ND is a Naturopathic Doctor. She is a Doctor, if your opinion is that MD's know "more" than ND's, then so be it. We clearly need to define what a PhD is - a PhD is a Doctor. I never said Susan was a Medical doctor so I'm not sure why you keep coming back to that to create a sense of discredit?
Any other questions you have pertaining to Susan's Silberstein's credibility and education, that you couldn't find on google, will I'm sure be answered by Susan directly, or her staff. Why don't you call her since you have taken a vested interest in her credentials - her number is 610-642-4810, and she will answer what her PhD is in.
"There are also many items for sale, classes that are $70 a pop, and so on"
They will do anything and everything they can to raise money so they can continue to save lives, it's what they do. If they could paint a rock and sell it for $10 they would, and they should be encouraged to do so and supported. That's what not for profits do to raise money. Had you called there and said, "I don't have a penny to my name and I'm dying of Cancer and in need of help," Your rock helps pay for that. Perhaps you should buy a rock help save a life Fifi.
Fifi: "you were talking about oxidative stress and lactic acid as being causes of cancer"
No, I never spoke of Lactic Acid causing Cancer. I spoke of Free Radicals being a culprit. Never said that Lactic Acid "causes" Cancer. Still, nothing of Vitamins was mentioned or posted.
Question 2 "Could you please post where you read that Free Radicals perhaps have nothing to do with Cancer formation or growth because I'm interested to understand that as it would change how I view Cancer and what I've learned about it thus far."
Question 2 spawned by your comment "there was no evidence that free radicals cause cancer from what I've read"
I agree that there is new information coming out all the time however, the link you provided clearly showed that Cancer was present before Mitochondrial Dysfunction, in fact, it was what created the dysfunction. Not the other way around. This is probably a sticky subject to talk at length about, which is another reason why I trust someone who's worked side by side with Oncologists and is supported by many.
Katrina
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Re: How do you nurture your sore body?
Thu, February 14, 2008 - 9:45 PMKatrina - Wow - that's an incredibly long post with a lot of cut and paste! Look, I'm not interested in a hostile exchange with you which is what this seems to be turning into. Clearly you are free to believe what you like about cancer and Susan Silberstein, just as I'm free to be skeptical of the sources you present for the reasons I laid out. I don't need you to believe what I do, and I would hope you don't need me to share your beliefs. Since neither of us are treating cancer patients, it doesn't really matter.
No doubt I do have a very different approach to medicine and cancer than you do, part of it based in the fact that my parents are MDs (my mother is also a psychologist, so I can actually see how Susan Silberstein being a psychologist could be relevant to what she does even thought it doesn't make her an MD). The other reason I'm skeptical of CAM approaches to cancer is that a yoga teacher who I deeply loved and respected died of cancer. Not only did she tell me of others in her community who'd died of cancer after choosing CAM treatments over chemotherapy (and who believed and were told that it as a result of their own lack of purity and good thoughts, and they'd somehow brought it upon themselves), but she also regretted delaying her own treatment in favor of CAM treatments. She would have had a better chance of being alive if she'd not delayed chemotherapy for a year. Now, I understand that Susan Silberstein seeks to combine CAM with treatments offered by oncologists and tries to promote her beliefs within this context, and tries to serve some of the same patient support services offered by other groups who don't have anything to promote, but since there's no research on PubMed that supports her approach I'm not going to simply accept it as being more than a means to promote CAM (which she's actually quite open about on the site). We clearly have very different understanding of what constitutes bias in regards to scientific evidence.
It's okay by me if we disagree but if it means that we're not going to be able to have a pleasant or constructive conversation about this - which it's starting to feel like with the "candy-coating" comments and the initial interpretation of my agreement about muscle tears as being a disagreement - then I'm just not interested and will choose this opportunity to disengage. -
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Re: How do you nurture your sore body?
Fri, February 15, 2008 - 6:40 AMYou don't need to hope that we can co exist with our opinions, this is the net and it's kind of hard to do anything but, right?! I do ask that since you are skeptical about something which you have no real experience with (www.beatcancer.org) that you look deeper into it before making judgements about them. I think you'll be suprised at what you find. Talk to them to cooberate your skeptisism or to put it to rest.
I think the issue lies in CAM treatments that are completely out of left field with no scientific approach whatsoever, and nothing else. (This isn't CACE) There are quacks out there peddling wholistic treatment for many ailments and unfortunately it is they who make others work twice as hars to be heard. And it is they who make people such as yourself extremely skeptical to treatments that are viable, but alternative nonetheless. I can't imagine how frustrating it is for the folks out there actually trying to help people (medically and wholistically) alongside the quacks, who greatly diminish their efforts.
"which it's starting to feel like with the "candy-coating" comments"
I said sugar coating which is my way of simply saying "Candid".. or cutting through the crap. I'm sorry that offended you. Another reason why this medium is sticky sometimes. (and that's what we we're doing...it's our choice if we get offended and drop out or not..so far, I'm not) When I'm explaining something, the process takes a whole lot longer when sugar coating is involved.. could you imagine that! And we we're both past that, I was being honest.
I did lay out a couple questions that would still be beneficial for me to understand. . . And I still see the positive in this discussion, past pettiness that we don't need to get hung up on. There's still a lot of good info that's been shared by the both of us.
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Re: How do you nurture your sore body?
Fri, February 15, 2008 - 8:10 AMKatrina - Well, of course we can coexist with our opinions online or even in the real world (since neither of us is going to poof out of existence because we disagree! ;-). I meant more along the line of "peacefully coexist" :-) I can appreciate where you're coming from now that you've explained your situation a bit more and hopefully explaining mine will help you understand some of my biases too :-)
I'm not actually against CAM treatments - I used to work in a clinical context teaching people life skills and how to make lifestyle changes that support health and happiness (chronic pain not cancer so my knowledge applies most to that area) and was often an advocate and defender of certain CAM practices and the importance of nutrition (MDs certainly recommend good nutrition, it's just that patients often don't want to comply and enact good eating habits until they've actually sick). It really depends on the practice and it's proven efficacy. I'm just cautious and I'm also very aware of the kinds of things that tend to denote exaggerated and/or inaccurate claims - or an organization that's promoting an agenda rather than focusing on the patient's best interest. Chronic pain treatment is very much mind/body medicine and holistic treatment - just not in the new age sense.
There's a real problem in regards to the perception of efficacy of alternative cancer treatments since obviously there often isn't documentation or clinical trials for a lot of them, often they're being done alongside proven medical treatments, and of course the people who they don't work for die so there's often no one to bear witness (and family and friends usually don't have the financial or emotional resources to fight those that took advantage of them while or after someone dies) and the people who survive may falsely attribute the cause of their survival (particularly if also using conventional treatments). The thing is, most people offering alternative treatments *believe* in them very deeply and have good intentions. The road to hell....etc. The reason clinical studies exist and science studies things the way that it does is because it diminishes as much as possible the researcher's bias. There's an innate human tendency to see what confirms our bias and dismiss what doesn't.
I could go over the many, many things that tip me off to some of the biases regarding beatcancer.org. One they talk about research and want people to make donations to fund research but not only does Susan Silberstein not show up on PubMed once (as anyone who's ever been involved in reputable medical research would) but there are no studies quoted or shown on the site (so obviously no studies worth publishing have been done in the 25-30 years the organization has been around). Two, the organization has a stated aim to promote CAM while also "treating" patients - that's a bit like trusting the guy who works for Chrysler and makes money from selling Chrysler's cars to give you advice about what the best car on the market is. Three, they say that they give consultations for free but that's also part of their pitch to have people fund them and buy their products. They don't, however, offer any of the "lifesaving" info about the treatments they promote online for free as most reputable cancer and patient care organizations do since their agenda is to spread information not make a profit. These are only a few of the very basic things that set off alarm bells for me - along with the fact that Susan Silberstein uses "Dr" but doesn't delineate what kind of doctor she is....for all we know her PhD could be in art history since this rather obvious piece of relevant info isn't provided in her bio. Using Dr to make oneself appear to be a medical doctor when one isn't is odd. Seriously, I'm not in America so I'm not going to make a long distance call to an organization that already gives strong indications of what it's all about. I have to wonder why you're curious as to why Susan Silberstein isn't more transparent regarding her background and qualifications, don't you want to know that she's qualified to understand what she's promoting and that there's actual science going on to back up the claims and methods being sold as science?
Atlantic Hematology Oncology Group - Are a group practice - a clinic - not a hospital or large organization that is more likely to conduct research. They've given money to sponsor beatcancer.com but that may be so that the organization refers them patients, just as the organization has given awards to some of their other sponsors (which obviously promotes their products). There don't seem to be any hospitals associated with beatcancer.com (nor have I found any hospitals that recommend beatcancer.com)
Check out the Ulimtate Health Group who she also works for... www.uhgroup.com/
What I find disturbing is all these overlapping financial interests (particularly in the context of a non-profit), the lack of any clinical evidence base that's presented, and the lack of any solid affiliation with a research hospital or group that wouldn't directly profit financially by association (which would be normal and expected for an organization that promotes a science-based practice). I also find the claims about survivors a bit odd when there's no way to know whether these people would have survived without her help - it could just as easily be all due to the conventional treatments. There's also no account of those who've been treated who didn't survive (which is not as marketable but certainly basic scientific disclosure).
Now, if you trust her and the organization as a source of unbiased information clearly that's your choice. I'm not "dropping out" because I'm "offended", I just feel like this conversation is not going to go anywhere and that it may just be better to agree to disagree and move on. I'm not asking you to believe or trust me, I'm just suggesting you apply the same skepticism to other sources as you do to what I'm saying and do more research. Go to one of your aunt or uncle's appointments with their oncologist and ask them the questions, or supply them with the information to ask their oncologist if they're interested in this avenue. I'm sure their oncologist will be happy to support healthy nutritional changes and would be happy to refer them to a group that provides emotional and psychological support for cancer patients. I've yet to hear of a reputable one that charges (though I know that even cancer treatment is profit driven in the US) and most hospitals have a list of local support groups to refer patients to. You and I aren't going to figure out what causes cancer or a cure here on the internet, and since neither of us are actually treating people ill with cancer what we personally believe isn't that important.
Like I said, I think we both can agree that eating well and getting exercise are good ways to stay healthy. I'd also agree that it's always a good thing to make peace with oneself and one's life. Since life *is* finite, it's worth enjoying it as much as we possibly can while we're here :-)
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Re: How do you nurture your sore body?
Fri, February 15, 2008 - 8:50 AMAgain, Fifi, before you make judgements, I ask that you research her organization deeper. Because a person does not "conduct" a study does not mean they aren't aware of the research. You don't need to do the research to be aware of the research. I wouldn't discredit you because you are not involved directly in clinical trials. I wouldn't expect Susan to come up on "PubMed", she doesn't conduct the research, she stays abreast of it.
Here's the information about what they do taken from their site. An article that perhaps will shed some more light on this organization which "tips you off".
"PATIENT SERVICES
Orthodox medicine in the United States – while unparalleled in its ability to offer state-of-the-art diagnostics, acute and emergency care, and technological excellence – has been largely inadequate in cases of chronic, degenerative, and non-specific disease conditions. Recently, there has been a great interest among healthcare consumers and practitioners alike in holistic, complementary and integrative medicine, in which patient participation is key. At the same time, much research has been published worldwide on the role of clinical nutrition, behavioral medicine and lifestyle modification in addressing illness.
Unfortunately, today's cancer patients suffer from more than cancer; they suffer from a syndrome called "information overload." Most patients are simply overwhelmed by the often confusing and contradictory cancer information provided by the broadcast and print media, the internet, conflicting medical opinions, and well-meaning friends, neighbors and relatives. As a result, they either abdicate their participatory role to the first oncologic opinion they encounter, or they end up researching themselves into completely ineffective "analysis paralysis."
The Center for Advancement in Cancer Education specializes in helping patients to negotiate the maze of available therapeutic options. It assists clients with resources and referrals specializing in clinical nutrition, botanical medicine, psychoneuroimmunology, and other innovative approaches. It provides guidance for accessing immune-enhancing programs to help prevent recurrence, non-toxic biological therapies to repair compromised body function, and creative ways to manage the side effects of conventional cancer treatments.
Thousands of cancer patients have benefited from the integrative lifestyle counseling (ILC) provided by the Center's counselors. Integrative lifestyle counseling is a service that helps clients design a holistic "game plan" to address multiple facets of their lives through various lifestyle approaches. Its purpose is to complement and enhance any medical choices a client may make. ILC can aid in the prevention and control of illness through coaching and guidance in diet, stress management, exercise, detoxification and other factors. It may include referrals to healthcare practitioners to serve an individual's special needs.
ILC is highly personalized. It pays attention to logistical, financial, and geographic limitations as well as to the belief systems of the client. The focus is on practical and manageable ways patients can make rapid, positive changes in their lives. In many cases, a single one hour session is all that is necessary. There is no fee for service. The Center works on a donation and membership basis, and all contributions are tax-deductible. Consultations may be held in person or over the phone. To schedule a consultation with any of the Center's counselors, call 610-642-4810."
Notice there is NO FEE FOR SERVICE.
They are involved with organizations which conduct research. Again, I feel you should call them and speak with them before publicly attempting to discredit them... I think that's the fairest way to approach this, don't you? Their number is listed twice now for you to use.
"The thing is, most people offering alternative treatments *believe* in them very deeply and have good intentions. The road to hell....etc."
-Is this a statement you are makng about CACE? Or are you speaking of other people / organizations?
"don't, however, offer any of the "lifesaving" info about the treatments they promote online for free"
-Instead, they ask you speak to them, at no charge, so they can give you personalized information based on your specific situation - something Fifi, they couldn't possibly to Online.
"Atlantic Hematology Oncology Group"
- Yes, a clinic FULL of ONCOLOGISTS. Who else would you like to support her since this clinic isn't "good enough"?
"I've yet to hear of a reputable one that charges"
- Again, their services are Free of Charge.
"Seriously, I'm not in America so I'm not going to make a long distance call to an organization"
- Since this topic is one you've already taken so much time to dissect with me, why wouldn't you spend the 2-5 dollars on a phone call, or call them collect perhaps? Or rather, if it's not that important to you, which it does seem to be, why don't you Email your concerns and quandaries to the organization to verify your claims or to support people who are honestly trying to support others with current research medically and alternatively? Publicly ripping a possibly wonderful organization without having any direct contact with them is really really unfair.
In regards to my Uncle, I spent 2 weeks in and out of the hospital with him and my family and not only met Oncologists but a vast many other Doctors that I was able to speak with. They have him on so much medication that they have him on medications for the medication to fight sleepiness or nausea or pain. It's sadder watching him on the medication than what the Cancer is doing to him. The few months that the Meds & Chemo *may* extend his life greatly diminish the quality of the time he has left. He feels this way as well but doesn't know what to do, which is his choice. The family supports whatever he and his wife choose and offer any additional info that we can.
Katrina
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Re: How do you nurture your sore body?
Fri, February 15, 2008 - 10:00 AMKatrina - Actually I've spent a fair amount of time researching the organization and its connections, enough to be personally satisfied about the the conclusions I've come to. I don't expect you to share them and you can come to your own conclusions. Others can come to theirs. I'm not sure why you feel it's so important for me to feel Susan Silberstein and her organization have answers. If it's merely the ideas you support - not the organization - then why not just offer support for the ideas not associated with a profit-making venture?
Having worked in the field I've actually done a lot of my own research into the efficacy of certain methods and have a very good idea of what's proven and what isn't. "Information overload" isn't a medical syndrome or condition *lol* I see no reason why this organization - which has an agenda other than patient care - would be a better steward of someone's treatment decisions than their oncologist would.
Katrina - "They are involved with organizations which conduct research."
Can you name these organizations?
Katrina - "Is this a statement you are makng about CACE? Or are you speaking of other people / organizations?"
It's a general statement.
Fifi - "They don't, however, offer any of the "lifesaving" info about the treatments they promote online for free"
Katrina "-Instead, they ask you speak to them, at no charge, so they can give you personalized information based on your specific situation - something Fifi, they couldn't possibly to Online."
Right, because a specific situation can be addressed and diagnosed over the phone, and a course of treatment can be outlined without actually conducting an exam. This is kind of silly when discussing diagnosing and prescribing medical treatment of any sort. It's worth noting that the first rule of any salesman is to get the buyer "on the line" so they can personally tailor their pitch to hook the client. It's also worth noting that their information *can* be packaged as a DVD and book - not sure why that would be hard to put online! After all, websites support text and video. Clearly there's some general information they feel is important enough to pay for that can be presented in text form, why not offer this for free?
Pointing out that a private group practice may have a financial interest in sponsoring an organization that can refer them patients isn't anything more than stating the obvious. Having grown up around traditional medicine, I'm aware of how marketing works in traditional medicine (as well as alternative medicine). Being associated with a research hospital or institution is a whole other ballgame and gives a whole other level of legitimacy. I'm aware that not everyone understands these things, which is why I've pointed them out.
Katrina - "Publicly ripping a possibly wonderful organization without having any direct contact with them is really really unfair."
No more or less "unfair" than publicly and unconditionally promoting a possibly not-so-impartial or wonderful organization.
Katrina - "It's sadder watching him on the medication than what the Cancer is doing to him. The few months that the Meds & Chemo *may* extend his life greatly diminish the quality of the time he has left. He feels this way as well but doesn't know what to do, which is his choice. The family supports whatever he and his wife choose and offer any additional info that we can."
Yes, it's incredibly sad watching someone die or suffer. It's also frustrating since we always want to find a way to alleviate the suffering of people we love (and people we don't personally love if we're compassionate people). Having watched people I care about make a diverse range of treatment choices, watched people I care about beat cancer using traditional methods, watched someone who chose CAM allow her cancer reach a point were conventional treatments were only used once the cancer had spread too far and this resulted in death, and having watched people I love die using both traditional and non-traditional methods, I'd say it's the individual's choice as to what treatments they want to undergo since, ultimately, they're the ones who live and die with their decisions (our distress and frustration at watching them suffer is really small potatoes in the big picture, don't you think?). Quantity vs quality of life is a very personal decision - obviously you believe that Susan Silberstein can offer your aunt and uncle something. I would think that if they agree they'd have engaged in all the free services on offer. You seem to have a bias against the conventional treatments they've chosen (treatments which Susan Silberstein apparently supports if her site is to be believed, or does she actually counsel patients not to partake in conventional treatments?). Dying is not easy but it is inevitable. How we live can sometimes have an influence on how we die, or we can get hit by a bus crossing the street or get an incurable infection and how we lived can be entirely inconsequential. Watching and being with someone as their body degenerates and they move closer to death is incredibly hard and frustrating - we can feel very powerless. Our power doesn't come from what we can *do* for people (though obviously doing for people what they can't do for themselves is helpful), it comes from *being* with them, loving them and offering support from the heart. I don't know if you've gone through this experience before - I lost two of my closest friends to AIDS and many other friends as well, and two of my grandparents died of cancer - I'm pretty familiar with death so I'd be happy to discuss this with you if you'd like. I can see that you want to believe that Susan Silberstein can offer your family hope and if your aunt and uncle choose to use beatcancer.com and Susan Silberstein's organization as a resource I truly hope it helps. I just don't think you and I debating what causes cancer and so on is going to help your aunt and uncle, or that we'll discover a 'cure' by doing so. I'd suggest supporting your aunt and uncle in their choices and just be present and with them in a loving way while there's still time to do so. Debating with me - a stranger on the internet - seems like a waste of that precious time.
All I can do is say that I wish you peace and have a great deal of compassion for your and your family's suffering having had the experience of having loved ones die from degenerative diseases. -
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Re: How do you nurture your sore body?
Fri, February 15, 2008 - 12:49 PMJust in case Katrina or anyone else is interested in keeping up with the current research themselves the National Cancer Institute is a good resource on current finding and studies in both conventional and CAM modalities. The information is provided in a way that lay people can understand (unlike actual research papers which are highly technical and won't make much sense to most people).
Their section on CAM
www.cancer.gov/cancertopi...therapy/CAM
Their homepage
www.cancer.gov/
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Re: How do you nurture your sore body?
Fri, February 15, 2008 - 4:35 PMFifi - "Right, because a specific situation can be addressed and diagnosed over the phone, and a course of treatment can be outlined without actually conducting an exam."
Sarcasm, eh?! They never claim they diagnose anything Fifi, redirect your attention back to what they do in "patient services."
Making negative judgements about people who are helping others, without ever having one conversation with them is unfair and judgemental... but I've said that already and now we're just chasing eachother's tails.
Fifi -""Information overload" isn't a medical syndrome or condition *lol* I see no reason why this organization -"
No one ever said it was a medical syndrome and "lol" yes, I think this conversation is over now.
Take Care
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